Welcome to symthic forums! We would love if you'd register!
You don't have to be expert in bit baking, everyone is more than welcome to join our community.

You are not logged in.

NoctyrneSAGA

PvF 2017 Champion

(9,456)

Posts: 6,946

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

  • Send private message

41

Wednesday, October 14th 2015, 3:51am

Similarly, I wasn't thinking of the air to ground game, and I agree that it needs to be fixed. However, the same criticism applies to BF4; have you not seen a single monstrous pilot wreck an entire team on, say, Paracel?


Uh, no. Reason being that there is a vehicle on the ground dedicated to swatting flyboys.

SWBF does not have any of that. And the only lock on launcher was removed. Not that it was able to hit in the first place.



I have DPI switches so I can change it on the fly. Besides, mouse offers 360 degree control. Keyboard gives you 8 directions.




My experience is vastly different from yours simply due to the amount of time I've had to play (hooray Alpha).

In fact, it was easy to identify former Alpha players by seeing how slow they went.

Whoever goes slowest and has the highest sensitivity wins.




Here's some footage recorded by my wingman, Woodrow Wilson.

Spoiler Spoiler









If it weren't for the fact that the BETA players were too invested in dogfighting, we could have easily gone 85-2 or 95-2. Towards the end of the Alpha, these K/D ratios were not unusual.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

Posts: 55

Date of registration
: Oct 27th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 2

  • Send private message

42

Wednesday, October 14th 2015, 10:12pm

Quoted from "symbolsix"
Similarly, I wasn't thinking of the air to ground game, and I agree that it needs to be fixed. However, the same criticism applies to BF4; have you not seen a single monstrous pilot wreck an entire team on, say, Paracel?
Uh, no. Reason being that there is a vehicle on the ground dedicated to swatting flyboys.


Sure, it exists, but it doesn't effectively prevent a good jet pilot from dominating a game in a way that isn't possible with other vehicles. An MAA is the best bad option against a jet, not a good option. A "meh" player can't make the strategic decision to take out a good jet with an MAA the way he can take it against a chopper, or the way he can take a chopper against a tank; at best, he sets up some weak sauce "area denial" and tries to tell himself that he's saving the team.

To be clear, I'm not saying that ATG isn't a problem for SWBF, just that it similar to a problem the we've been living with for years playing DICE games.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Different note entirely: I watched your videos closely but I was in an air to air frame of mind, so I didn't realize that your point was more about ATG being OP until I was almost done. First and fourth were pure ATG and spawn rape, so I'll skip them other than to say that I was doing the same thing by day two of the beta, complete with 54:0-both-ATATs-down-on-first-MCOMS games, so I don't think there's much to say other than that we agree that spawn rape and ATG are problems. Here's my thoughts on the other two:

Second video:
0:40-ish, First thing remotely like a dogfight, and it's 3v1. Note that our point of view player (POV) doesn't fully drop throttle to turn inside the A-wing.

1:08-1:10. The TIE is going at full throttle, but the A-Wing still increases the gap. There's no "Boost" ability in the A-Wing, so I'll treat this as soft confirmation that my intuition about different flight characteristics was correct.

1:10 Again, POV keeps throttle at half even while it's clear he'll need to make a full U turn to get on A-Wing's tail

Side note: there were fucking three of you spawn camping that guy, and he still had time to complete a strafe, AND he took you out with his ram. Tch tch tch.

Skipped the rest; Phase 3 vehicles balance is dumb. It is known.


Third video:

1:03 HURRAY! For the first time we see POV actually practicing what you preach, and dropping his throttle to zero! This is as far as I can tell the only time POV

OTOH, that first A-Wing prefers to strafe the ATAT once rather than engage you (either bad or just recognizing that it's hopeless after he got spawn raped with a missile and flying into a 2v1), so I'm not sure that this is a great example of Pro Alpha Gamer High Sensitivity Dog Fighting. By the time his friend shows up, he's toast.

The friend (first appearing around 1:08 on radar), for his part, is a scrub and strafes two invincible ATATs instead of trying to use his partner's sacrifice as a diversion and engage you.

The rest is Phase 3, though before I clicked out I noticed that Mr. Pro Alpha Gamer used a button maneuver to try to dodge a missile before going back to the manual approach.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Summary: Your footage doesn't show anything terribly remarkable. ATG is broken worse than but similar to BF4, and ATA is broken when you're spawn raping or playing against utter newbies (not even bads, just players who are too unfamiliar with the game to know not to strafe the shielded ATAT), and serious ATA combat wasn't covered.


I'm still open to the possibility that you have Secret Pro Gamer Alpha Tester Knowledge. I'd be interested in seeing dog fighting footage if you happen to have it, not just as a confrontational thing but because I can't record myself, and I'd be interested in being able to step frame by frame through engagements and check things like relative aircraft damages and speeds.

NoctyrneSAGA

PvF 2017 Champion

(9,456)

Posts: 6,946

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

  • Send private message

43

Thursday, October 15th 2015, 12:00am

@symbolsix

There is no Alpha dogfighting footage in my library due to the fact that I mostly recorded how powerful aircraft were against infantry.

Dogfights were so mindless that I didn't even bother recording them.



You also misunderstand the reason why going slow is the way to dogfight. If the target is moving at high speed in a straight line, high turn rate and tight turn radius aren't going to help at all. The target will flee your effective range. This is why Woodrow WIlson had to give chase sometimes. Though I do not quite believe a target fleeing could be constituted as "dogfighting" if they are only trying to stay alive. When the target begins a circlejerk turning battle, that is when it's time to reduce speed and up sensitivity so that you always turn tighter than they do.

Also, I had to advise Woodrow not to use the F1-F3 maneuver keys. To my knowledge, he stopped using them once I told him that. One of these videos is from his second time flying and of course he ends up displaying bad flying. I had to explain to him why he should go slow when dogfighting and only go fast to avoid missiles. He had been operating under the assumption that he should be going fast.

I wasn't rammed either. I crashed into the A-Wing's wreckage while I was turning. You'll see that in the killfeed. If it had been a ram, they would've been credited with a kill. They weren't.

Looking over the brief chase, I find it hard to conclude that the A-Wing increased the gap. Wilson wasn't at top speed until the A-Wing started turning around. Furthermore, I did not experience any significant flying differences when operating any of the aircraft with slow speed and high sens except for the Speeder which handles extremely poorly.



TL;DR - There is no such thing as "serious" dogfighting in SWBF. In order to facilitate infantry farming, it is paramount to prevent "serious" dogfights from happening. This is why Wilson and I are constantly spawn raping enemy air. It lets friendly aircraft farm in peace and one individual who caught on wound up going 65-5 once we got the skies under control. Those types of engagements exist only for people who believe otherwise and even when it happens, it's a repeat of 313 flight physics, only you fly slower.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

Posts: 60

Date of registration
: Mar 24th 2013

Platform: PC

Location: New Jersey, USA

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 6

  • Send private message

44

Thursday, October 15th 2015, 12:03am

The reason that you bring up about my throttle not being at 0% all of the time is answered in your own criticism, most of the time I didn't need to. When I was making any sort of sharp turn I would bring my throttle back, not even when engaged with an enemy fighter. Another thing you seem to not understand about dogfighting in general: It's not always the best to have the highest turn speed at all times. What I mean by this is that say Fighter Y is in a 40 degree dive, Fighter Y goes from 100m/s to 200m/s in this dive. Fighter X sees Fighter Y and immediately tries to engage him, knowing he has a vastly superior turn radius. However, since Fighter X is going 20m/s and is turning in a 20m radius, vs fighter Y which is going 200m/s in a 200m turn radius, Fighter X will almost never get a constant shot on Fighter Y. However if fighter X Increased his radius by 100m, the fight would be cut clean in Fighter X's favor (as long as he got the shot off). Why didn't WW2 comprise of highly maneuverable Bi-planes? Exactly this reason. What I'm trying to say is that If you go too slow, sometimes it becomes harder, or even impossible to hit your target rather than having less of a speed gap. Not to mention that your goal is to be comfortably behind someone to get a shot off. Plus, I recorded these videos to show all around how stupid jets/fighters were in the beta, not for the sole purpose of dogfighting. However, these videos did show how the actual game plays out on all levels with complete air dominance. Besides, the dogfighting in Battlefield 3/4 is leagues more complex than Battlefront, In Battlefront you lose all roll control and the complexity of battlefront suffers from the lack of the entire roll axis. This means effectively, you cannot do rolling scissors as an evasive maneuver, not to mention that the turn radius is so low that you cannot do switches. What game can you do all of those things? DCS, Warthunder and, oh right, Battlefield 3 and 4.

Posts: 55

Date of registration
: Oct 27th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 2

  • Send private message

45

Thursday, October 15th 2015, 12:47am

We're talking past each other:
I point out that your footage doesn't demonstrate the principles you advance because the enemies aren't flying well. You explain to me that the enemies aren't flying well and so the principles you advance aren't relevant, and by the way Bro Are You Even Alpha? Bro Do You Even Rolling Scissors?


I'm going to bow out, and while I think it's clear that, balance aside, SWBF has made a perfectly fine flight mechanic without any pretense at flight simulation, I acknowledge that I was trash at War Thunder and both of you certainly understand flight simulators of all levels of complexity better than I do.

MrT3a

The only man who ever reported his own post!

(924)

Posts: 2,980

Date of registration
: Jul 19th 2012

Platform: PC

Location: Grenoble, France

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 12

  • Send private message

46

Thursday, October 15th 2015, 5:34pm

Stats thingy

Quotes of wisdom (maybe)


I'm a battlefield player, good sir. I don't play metro.

PC is no longer PC master race. It's PC mustard race, because consoles need to ketchup :'D

DICE gave so much into making commander better, but lemmings be lemmings I guess.

As a good guy that don't want to use overly glitched weapons, I'll quit using the MTAR and switch to the ACWR until it's fixed

The world needs more people like you


+1, I think we're all in agreement that more MrT3as would be an awesome thing :love:
Although if that was the case they'd use up so much of the world's awesome that there'd be none left for the rest of us! :D

yes, I know, I'm a big-ass hypocrite

Posts: 87

Date of registration
: Jul 22nd 2014

Platform: PC

Location: Poland

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 4

  • Send private message

47

Friday, October 23rd 2015, 7:21pm

To be honest I was bored after 3 rounds. $10 worth to me, I'd say it'll end up like Titanfall.

Mofixil

Sometimes I just get blinded by hate. And tears.

(374)

Posts: 1,403

Date of registration
: Jul 27th 2013

Platform: PC

Reputation modifier: 8

  • Send private message

48

Friday, October 23rd 2015, 7:31pm

To be honest I was bored after 3 rounds. $10 worth to me, I'd say it'll end up like Titanfall.

Titanfall was a decent game though, while Hardline and MoH Warfighter... These are closer to Battlefront imho.