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  • "iota-09" started this thread

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21

Sunday, February 21st 2016, 1:36am

Their PvP concept is stupid in the current form. It is a gear race, with the best loot obtained by doing PvE in a PvP area. Once you and the other players grasp the concept you will rarely see anything but PvE grinding. However once you are max rank and got your goldtier weapon there is no incentive for anything else but "PvP", which is, because of the punitive nature of the rogue system, a treadmill of ganking loners and then being swarmed to death by the whole zone.

Now do not get me wrong, going rogue should be punished and they did change the most pressing issues, but the incentive did not change. I saw only minor PvP action that was not instigated by me, but when we entered the manhunt stage it was a countdown to failure. We fortified ourselves in the underground and stood our ground for four minutes to be killed by six people coming repeatedly. Then we fortified ourselves on a roof with a ladder as the only way up. After 10 minutes or so and with 30 seconds left on the countdown we were swarmed by eight people. In the end the eighth guy killed the last of us and seven were lying down or had to spawn back in. THe second time we got the cooldown to end and received 600$ for the time again after having farmed ten guys or so. I do not know what the guy got for killing and looting us, but I doubt that anyone of the 13 people involved had any kind of fun with that. Either way people got farmed, and they certainly did not get anything out of it, we gained 300$. And all of that took twenty minutes of our and their time.

Had we all banded together to kill PvE mobs and loot chests, we would have likely received more in terms of money and progress.

So the best chance of doing PvP right now, if that is one's understanding, is to gank a loner and let the 90 second timer wear off. Or you can hold off as long as you can as a group and farm people like us. That is what is being promoted right now in the Dark Zone. Both is not what I call PvP at all. So you are left with less than challenging PvE mobs and hunting people who accidentally went rogue (which is still too easy).

The Devs said though that the End Dark Zone is totally different from what there is now, though. I honestly have no clue how they can change mechanics just because there is a lvl 30 dark zone. Sounds like marketing bullshit to me, because they know what is wrong with their game. Yet we will know in two weeks time.

well, it's s actually pvevp, and i saw a nice "concept explanation post" somewhere on reddit, saying how in reality dark zone it's just pve, and while they allow pfp for many reasons, they don't want it, and the rogue system it's basically the same teamkill ban from cs-go, in which if you do kill a player, you'd be tagged, but that was your own choice...

i'm not good at explaining stuff, i'll link the post if i find it, but it seemed to make a lot more sense than what i'm actually saying.


EDIT:
found it

How to see the rogue system as the way they are designed and was meant to be : thedivision

the onky flaw of it i can see is "but why allowing pvp at all if it's a punishment? and why not allowing to switch off friendly fire?" tl;dw, it's because of the concept of dark zone and simply the fact that everyone wants at least some resemblance of actual pvp, or the game wouldn't sell.
although i as well think there should be an option do disable friendly fire, even just to prevent accidentally going rogue.
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This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "iota-09" (Feb 21st 2016, 1:43am)


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Sunday, February 21st 2016, 2:15am

I understand the idea, I agree with the concept and I agree that punishing is a good idea. I am arguing that being farmed on either end is frustrating. Imagine you get killed while doing some PvE mobs by a group of four, they vanish underground and let their timer wear off. The one looting you gets your cash and keys and stuff, while the others get nothing. Now you want to pay them back track them down and engage them after the timer is up, you might even kill them but you are now flagged and with a higher timer. Or you engage them with others and eventually you overcome them by numbers before their manhunt timer was down. I am not sure about the bounty mechanic but right now I can only recall getting it when I kill the guy (might have something to do with damage, too). When I execute them I get their loot so that makes sense as well. What I am getting at other than the satisfaction you might not get anything out of this manhunt.

Now I would be cool with that if this game was not all about gear, but about how you outplay your opponents. Yet it isn't. It is about how fast can you get the top-tier weapon. And with that weapon you can then oneshot the noobs from afar that have not yet invested six hours to get the Liberator. I can not even imagine what the game will be like when they bring in the gold-tier sniper rifles with 10k headshots.

At first I thought one could compare it to DayZ or similar mods, where it is indeed the loot AND outplaying your opponent, but the loot you get in the Dark Zone is meaningless, it is vendor trash. I got 20k of dollars stacked in my FOB and have no clue what to do with it, I do not pick up items any more and I do not extract. Because the best weapons and gear you get in this game is from farming mobs like in the worst asian MMORPGs I have ever seen.

See what I am getting at, is, that I play to have fun in PvP, mainly my fun, but it helps when everybody else has a good time, too. Basically like Battlefield. But that is because there are teams and everybody meets on equal terms. It is not like after killing 200 guys I suddenly get access to the F2000 which has the doubled damage. I get killed and I kill, and other than meaningless stats I lose or gain nothing, I do not have to be afraid to lose stuff as a noobie that I desperately need to be able to compete. Then again, when I got my stuff I can do PvP and not care about losing but be frustrated in the end because every engagement ends in a one-sided slaughter, where I know that in the end maybe noone gained anything.

I do not want to enforce a frustrating KoS/farm/gank mentality, but that is what you do with slow bad geared people on one end, and fast high tiered people with nothing to do on the other.

Edit: Pink is the new urban camo.
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "VincentNZ" (Feb 21st 2016, 2:20am)


  • "iota-09" started this thread

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Sunday, February 21st 2016, 2:22am

i see what you mean, but you must remember that gold weapons aren't always the best, purple and very rarely even blue weapons can compare if not outplay gold guns with the right stats roll.
it isn't about farming points, it is about farming gear, even when you get already nice equipment, you'll have to search for even nicer equipment trough stats and talents, it just isn't that relevant in the beta dueto low level cap, miserable loot, and almost no skills along with a ltot of other things.
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Sunday, February 21st 2016, 4:14am

@Iota-09




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Sunday, February 21st 2016, 12:13pm

Yeah I know I am just projecting the game as it is now on beta onto the lvl 30 endgame.

The gear gap is not as high as it was in the closed beta I have to admit. Yet the gold weapons are much better, the "skills" on the weapons do not count a whole lot and only have marginal influence on your damage output. The "Skill" you talked about earlier with more damage against low health opponents is exclusive to pistols though I believe, as far as I can recall, every pistol I used had that. That being said I just checked my M9 which has a DPS of 2,1k, but you can not simply double that of course, the damage however is still only 350 which would mean you get 700 damage against enemies below 30%, which is still far below my AR or my DMR. The mods on your armor are by far more interesting, I got a piece with +33 AR damage, which is a reason I am close to 6000 DPS.

If, and that is a big if, can keep the the performance gain from regular PvE gear, to mission PvE gear= Darkzone PvE gear, to Dark Zone vendor gear, to Dark Zone Safehouse gear = PvE raid gear, rather minimal I will be happy about it. On the whole there should not be more than, I say, 20% gain from one end to the other, plus opverlaps where lower tier gear is a bit better than higher tier gear out of luck (I am still running a blue mag that increases my weapon damage by 6,5%). This will play out good, because you would have a decent chance as a dedicated PvE player in a PvP allowing environment.

And of course you have to keep both crowds entertained when they finished levelling or they will just get bored and boredom is the death of a fair and fun game. When pro gamers get bored, as in DayZ, they will wreck everything in their way, because they just do not care anymore. Bad for the game.

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Sunday, February 21st 2016, 12:54pm

Judging from that reddit thread linked earlier "the PvP crowd" aren't happy with the rogue mechanic because they'd like the DZ to be a pvp focused area. I think evidence suggests that it isn't:

- Loot drops are generated by PvE kills, not PvP
- Kill rewards for going rogue are less efficient than PvE combat
- Rogue status is obviously designed as a punishment for players disrupting others' PvE interaction
- Killing rogues is rewarded way more than going rogue
- It makes little sense lore-wise that a patriotic, idealistic, disciplined and well-trained Division agent should actively try to hunt and kill their colleagues

The PvP crowd will not be happy with The Division as it stands. What would be required there is an actual dedicated PvP area, where PvE has little to no importance.
I'm not sure if that's a good idea, though. Cover-based third person shooters don't make for a great competitive PvP environment IMO. Maybe with objective-based modes, but if the only PvP "mode" is to hunt and kill it's not going to be pretty engaging.

Also @CobaltRose :
Wat, that little empty speck of city is already a third of the entire map?
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You should also answer this question I had posed in that thread: Would you be willing to pay your surgeon more if he was going to use a chainsaw for the opening incision of surgery? Clearly using a chainsaw isn't truly suited for surgery but that doesn't really matter. If he's "skilled" enough to be able to use the wrong tools of the trade, he should be rewarded for that skill right?


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Sunday, February 21st 2016, 2:16pm

Yeah but in every showcase and every demo and gameplay video they released before they were talking about PvP and that the Dark Zone is supposed to be their endgame. Heck they showed and explained the tension when meeting other players who will stab you at the back to get precious loot, or rogue agents holding certain grounds etc.

What we see in the beta and what their marketing focused around are two totally different things obviously.

PvE wise we have not seen anything special, the missions are alright but as you can seemingly solo the whole game the challenge is greatly diminished. The map is huge but empty and nothing exciting happens at all. Obviously you can solo all the way to 30 and they are awfully silent about endgame group content. Yeah there might be 8 people raids, but they are not announced and anything else PvE wise is still obscure.

That is why everybody looked for the Dark Zone as the place to be. Ubisoft told us so, and we've seen that this is the only place that matters. Is it exciting though? No the same PvE mechanics as in the rest of New York. Is it tense? No not really, because the loot is irrelevant? Do you wonder if your people will stab you in the back? No not really because the most efficient way to get anything done is to band together loosely and grind mobs.

I bet, and this I deduce by my huge playtime so far, that most rogue cases are still accidental or provoked. The rest is initiated by bored players with no content left.

Edit: On a more general topic, the shooting mechanics do seem to be similar or the same as in BF4, at least concerning recoil in spread. There is initial stability, horizontal stability, stability, precision as stats that can be reduced by percentages through mods. This translates to FSM, horizontal recoil, vertical recoil and spread. How would one test this, and is there a chance by popular demand that there might be a stat page for this game? Or does one know a site that already compiled some facts?

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "VincentNZ" (Feb 21st 2016, 2:35pm)


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Monday, February 22nd 2016, 12:13am

Their PvP concept is stupid in the current form. It is a gear race, with the best loot obtained by doing PvE in a PvP area. Once you and the other players grasp the concept you will rarely see anything but PvE grinding..
Don't forget the trolls that go rogue then use an out-of-party player as a human meat shield. They keep getting smarter ;(

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Roughly. I mean don't get me wrong it's not DayZ, ARMA or even Far Cry levels of huge, but you move a lot slower in The Division than in any of those games and the streets have a lot of shit in them to act as cover, which can make street navigation a bitch (as if navigating the city wasn't tough enough already -- I mean it's not Boston, but still :thumbdown: ).
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Monday, February 22nd 2016, 5:35am

Just logged out of the beta for the last time, doubt i'll play again tonight and definitely won't be tomorrow morning. I like this game, surprisingly enough. I like third person shooters and this one feels pretty good all around. Definitely some performance issues with some computers, which I feel is likely software related, as updating my drivers bumped me up to permanently above 30 fps, with a graphics card that is only just barely above minimum requirements. I only updated in the first place to fix some terrible artifacting I had, which it did solve.

Weapon balance will be a big concern for me, but moreso is the scarcity of stuff to do in a populated map. I only got to open a few darkzone chests in 3 days, they are always looted. Even finding AI to fight is tough because people are running circles around the map trying to farm loot. One of the things about Guild Wars 2 that has spoiled me is that nobody is screwed out of something to do, or getting rewards for doing that thing. I feel somewhat cheated that I can spend 2+ hours on a DZ map and if i'm unlucky find absolutely nothing to do except run around. I hope they end up bringing PvE drops up to par with Darkzone stuff, and I assume they will since we were able to get up to level 12 DZ items in the beta but only level 8 PvE items. I'd also like to see Darkzone specific missions for DZ currency, because otherwise getting anything done above level 10 will take days on end. Costs at the vendors will probably go up with your level, and if it does then currency acquisition is far too slow.

I will be keeping my eye on The Division much more closely than I thought, especially considering the somewhat recent death of Payday 2 at the hands of its own creators. I want another decent group shooter and this might just be it. You have impressed me for now, Ubisoft.

End of Beta Stats


  • "iota-09" started this thread

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Monday, February 22nd 2016, 8:15am

it has to be, i mean, people with any kind of hardware have problems... i for example, have been able to play only once in the dark zone for more than 10 minutes without stuttering, i barely reached rank 8 on my full firearms guy.
as for the issues you're worried about, i believe most if not all of them will be non-existant with the game's release thanks to hte way larger amount of content and of the map.

anyway, i still have been able to finish up all missions and almost all the loot with 4 characters though:

firearms-stamina
stamina-tech
firearms
firearms-tech

i'd say FS and FT were the strongest in solo, ST in team, and only firearms was just weak(but maybe with purple equipment it could have been viable, i dunno)

got all blue gear only on ST though, although i picked some of the worst guns for that class(rpk and scar-l)
"I'm just a loot whore."


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bf4
on 13/05/2016
23rd M320FB user on pc(13/05/16)
rush mode score RANK:2794 TOP:2% OUT OF:215398
obliteration mode scoreRANK:994 TOP:1% OUT OF:159466
handgun medals RANK:2236 TOP:2% OUT OF:143874
longest headshot RANK:9512 TOP:4% OUT OF:257589
recon score RANK:10871 TOP:4% OUT OF:274899
general score per minute RANK:10016 TOP:4% OUT OF:294774

bf3
31/3/2012 4:58:

Headshot distance RANK:493* TOP:0%
Revives per assault minute RANK: 6019 TOP: 3%
Headshots / kill percentage RANK:25947 TOP:13%
MVP ribbons RANK:18824 TOP:11%

*= 6 if we not count the EOD BOT headshots

@kataklism

ARGUMENT DESTROYED 100

ENEMY KILLED [REASON] JSLICE20 100


WRITING SPREE STOPPED 500

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