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  • "slidingbandit" started this thread

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Monday, March 11th 2013, 6:29am

Idea/theory to re-balance the recon class. Also first post paragraph . . . somewhere in the wall of text.

I figure that this probably belongs more in the battlefield 3: technical discussion category but, since I'm speaking about future battlefield I didn't want to get slaughtered for incorrect thread placement on my first post. Anyways, IMO weapon balance has always been incorrectly viewed has how the weapon interacts with in a map and not the other way around which, ultimately leads to the weapon with the most versatility with in the ranges offered in a major of maps becomes the OP weapon within the game. (while this is an opinion that developed during my younger years while playing COD, I still think it is relevant in the Battlefield series) One thing that is also important to recognize with in battlefield that is all but irrelevant in COD is the balance between the infantry classes.

*skip to here for the guts of the suggestion* The class that I have been spending most of my time thinking about how to re-balance is the recon class as IMO it is the most irrelevant class in its current state. I suggest that DICE expands the ability of the recon class to be relevant without expanding the ability to OHK to semi-automatic sniper rifles. My exact suggestion is that DICE should incorporate a "knock down" effect to the semi-auto snipers for head shots and body shots from bolt action snipers. I would personally suggest that the effect would almost 1:1 replicate the "downed" animation from cooperative in Battlefield 3 but, as long as the animation doesn't limit the players ability to be killed during the animation I could really care less about the exact mechanics of the "knock down" effects animation as long as once knocked down the player had limited capability to retaliate against the sniper. One aspect that I stupidly didn't consider until I actually began typing is the fact that this would most likely be since as a "bleeding out" effect and I personally think that would be a better way to describe it. in other words derp on my part but, I'm too lazy to go back and change the wording.

TL;DR: Bolt action snipers: Headshot=OHK, body shot= bleeding out, leg shot= ouch but, still able to fight
Semi-auto snipers: Headshot=Bleeding out, body shot= Ouch but, still able to fight.

IMO this will allow dice to make snipers more replicate there real life counterparts in terms of accuracy and most importantly bullet velocity (which IMO will make sniping easier at longer distance which, is relevant for paragraph/ second idea). While this is a balancing feature that allows the snipers to not feel as if they lack fire power at medium ranges I still believe that the long range sniper has a role to play in the game but, not in its current state. While this had not been has well thought out as my previous idea I believe that it is not so under developed that it is not even worth mentioning. My second suggestion is that for long range sniper OHK's (most likely limited to the bolt action sniper rifles) that there be a reward for achieving such a shot that goes beyond simply a point bonus for the distance of the kill. I believe that the best way to reward this is to place an extend respawn timer on the killed player thus the infantry the sniper is supporting actually has a weaker force to fight against for a set amount of time. The reason that this idea is very under developed is that I have no idea how much time should be added to the respawn or if this mechanic should be limited to only a sniper killing another sniper. Of course, by no means is either one of my suggestions without its flaws (as I know will be pointed out) but, that is the point of the suggestion is to see if we as a community can work out the kinks/ totally disregard the idea since it hinders gameplay/fun. I understand the internet and I know that someone somewhere must have thought of this before me (obviously since bleed out effect is almost a direct copy of the one in the co-op except I describe the technical details for which said effect would occur.)
So whether we come to the conclusion that the mechanic would be beneficially to the sniper class or completely break the class I think we should come to a conclusion since lord knows we don't want another mechanic that isn't well developed such as suppression that is a good idea in theory but, simply isn't complete enough to work as intended (everything about suppression is IMO)

To conclude, I hope I fit in here since I have been a lurker for quite some time. Also, if this has already been suggested else where please direct my to the thread since I did not want to spend too much time searching for a related thread since I was itching to write this down. Anyways, I'm slidingbandit and I'm not a fan of welcome threads/posts since I like to have meaning to what I am saying most of the time but I will oblige to a small introduction. I wanted to be a game designer for as long as I can remember but, since I'm now a political science major (ironically, I don't do concise very well) at the university of Calgary that is obviously gamer designer is not in the cards any more. So I figure that if I can't design the game mechanics myself I mine as well lend my suggestions to the community and hopefully our voice will be loud enough/ideas are as good as I believe they are and the developers will implement them into the game. My passion always been FPS and I have often have a different perspective of difficult problems that developers experience [maybe that is because I don't have a great understanding of the technical aspects of game development but, it is often people that don't understand the restrictions/rules that break new ground in there field, (I'm not going to provide evidence/citation for that so it believe or don't is your choice!)] Anyways I'm done so. . . . commence ripping my idea/theory to shreds!

p.s. I try my best to correct errors while I type but, suffer from dyslexia so I apologize if anything is completely unreadable. please point out any errors/concepts that don't make sense and I will promptly correct them (unless that is what I meant of course but, any inquiry still warrants a response and will justifiable receive one.)


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Monday, March 11th 2013, 8:43am

In all honesty, if there's anything the recon class needs, I can guarantee you that they aren't sniper rifles.

A class that is meant for reconnaissance shouldn't just have the DMR/SR weapons just because 'it was the only one left' (or so it seems). Remove the Bolt Actions, who add nothing but hill 'snipers', instead, give the class more appropriate tools for reconnaissance, I mean who'd flank their way around enemy forces with a, say, M40A5?

Just an half arsed opinion written by someone with lack of sleep, will keep on with later...

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Monday, March 11th 2013, 9:14am

Ways to buff recon:

Nerf IR smoke so the SOFLAM actually has a purpose. Recon is now useful on vehicle heavy maps.

Make the TUG-s work like medkits and ammo boxes, meaning you can drop one anywhere whenever you like, but can only have one deployed at a time. Being a useful, front line recon is now faster and more convenient. Every other class gets at least one infinite ammo equipment (medkit, defibs, ammo box, mortar, repair tool) why not recon?

The recon weapons themselves aren't bad. The SKS, M417, and M39 are all great, as is the AS-VAL, and plenty of other options in the PDW category.
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Monday, March 11th 2013, 9:23am

Dice won't remove bolt-actions cos there would be a shitstorm from everyone, myself kind of included.
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  • "slidingbandit" started this thread

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Monday, March 11th 2013, 9:23am

You do make a very fair point but, where do we put the sniper rifles if they don't go to the recon class? and if we think alike (you would move them to support) where would the LMG's go? [I don't think that having both weapons in the same class would lead to equal use without a major overhaul in how the snipers and LMG's balance against each other (I think that the support class needs a overhaul anyways but, I haven't put a great deal of thought into in as the recon is noticeably less useful and IMO easier to fix then support so they get my attention ATM.)]

I also don't believe that battlefield (for at least battlefield 4) will be a large enough scale that the required energy/dedication of resources to having a member of your team just perform reconnaissance is justifiable. The recon player that actually spots before taking shots and communicates with his/her (communication is really the OP weapon in any game) can actually be beneficial. I was more leaning the topic towards making the recon class relevant in competitive play without placing additional constraints (such as removing squad spawn to make spawn beacons a must, ect.) that would really be more annoying than improving sniper rifles.

IMO if competitive play is using all classes equally I think we have found a balance between classes. (I know that DICE needs to work on the support class but, I think that simply reducing the max amount of ammunition would be a good start then work from there but, that is off topic from the thread) I don't believe that without improving snipers we would see a increase in usage in the competitive scene. [especially semi-autos/DMR's since they fill that medium engagement distance but, once again if the maps were designed to have snipers in mind without completely taking them out of the fray their usage would increase. (Also remember that this is taking into consideration competitive as we currently know it with most prize tournaments being below 12v12 which is a sad display of battlefield IMO so, every point taken into consideration should be completely irrelevant once real large scale competitive battlefield takes the main spotlight)]

Also, I find making long shot to be quite satisfying from time to time (as long as the shots are relevant to pushing forward.)

P.S. This isn't my first rodeo, I know how introduction threads really go down :P
oh, and square brackets mean that I went off topic on a topic that was already worthy of being considered off topic. Or in other words double off topic.

*response to response other than first response* Valid points but, I personally don't think that weapons are quite powerful enough to put it on par with the assault class [while I don't think that map design plays a role I think that in the battlefield series it play less of a role than improving the weapons. IMO the average engagement is just more suitable towards assault rifles thus, all the equipment improvements that you suggested are simply not enough IMO.(I think that flag/bomb placement plays a role in this but, I am not a map designer I simply react to what I see in game.]

*second response* I agree 100% snipers aren't going anywhere so we need to find a useful purpose for them in competitive play, thus IMO that is the ultimate indicator of balance.

hopefully I responded to all the responses, if not I give up and I'm making another post.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "slidingbandit" (Mar 11th 2013, 9:45am) with the following reason: more response before I finished my

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Tuesday, March 12th 2013, 12:36am

I'd say: Split the recon class into recon and sniper. Recon gets close/medium range weapons, beacons, tugs, maybe claymores. Sniper gets all sniper rifles, binoculars (for longer spot times), soflam, special long range optics and rangefinding equipment. Maybe anti-materiel rifles could be incorporated too, capable of disabling vehicles if shot in the right places. Recon would fill a simiar role to the spec-ops class in BF2, but would add the ability for beacons and additional area control/lockdown.
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Tuesday, March 12th 2013, 12:59am

Add one hit kill ability with bolt actions to the groin because body armor covers the mid and lower torso. The groin contains some major organ groups that there are not any modern body armor specs that protect that area. BF3 is designed to implement the aspect of body armor mixed with a healing ability that ads more of a fun factor to the majority of the community.

Also OHK ability should be extended down to the collar bone area below the neck. Currently it is only the head and upper neck. Also If you shoot someone in the arms while they are moving horizontally to your shot then the bullets path of trajectory should penetrate through the upper arm bypassing the armor going through the lungs and perhaps the heart leaving a one hit kill.

Semi autos should slightly have less recoil when ADS and should have a greater hip fire spread. At close to medium range the adjustment would not make any difference in the TTK. Yet at longer ranges semi autos would become better at engaging moving targets.
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Tuesday, March 12th 2013, 1:07am

I favor a larger class system:

Support: LMGs, Medkits, Ammo
Assault: ARs, M320, Autoinjector
Engineer: Carbines, Rockets, Repairs
Recon: PDWs, Motion Sensor, C4/Claymores
Sniper: Sniper Rifle, Limited motion sensor*, Designator**

*Think BC2 wookie balls rather than, say, a TUGS
**For a mortar strike or missile, BC1 style

That's how it should work.

A sniper rifle is a decision which has (for the most part) a context of "I'm going to be useless now." I'll concede that an objective-oriented recon player is quite useful (TUGS near objectives is quite useful) and the ability to engage defenders before the rest of your team moves into an area is an incredible capability. That doesn't mean that you should be on a mountain somewhere. Bipod and 12x are both serious problems that encourage uselessness.

Can the SKS beat your average assault rifle in a 1v1? Maybe. What about two medics with M16s? Never. The SKS is the only weapon that allows recons to play aggressive roles (well, the M417 too, but to a much lesser extent). Then why do people say that the SKS is OP? Because it allows players to use good equipment in close proximity to an objective. It's the only weapon that makes the class useful and it's a worse AN-94 (which the average player doesn't even consider using). Though, to be honest, immortality is a better perk than knowing where said immortals are, but let's not discuss that here.

In my opinion, there really needs to be a split between the two classes.

Aggressive weapons like PDWs and shotties
Good close-range items like C4 and continuous scan devices

Sniper rifles which force headshots and precision (2x bodyshot with a sniper is the easiest kill in the game)
Gadgets that function at long range (mortars, BC1 laser designator), fallback weapons for defense
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Tuesday, March 12th 2013, 1:43am

People considering recon UP are people that never played real battlefield.
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Tuesday, March 12th 2013, 2:40am

Recon is the only class that doesnt have a specific gadget/ability that the other classes have.
The assault kit heals/reveives
the engineer repairs, can sucsesfully engage all enemy vehicles
Support gives ammo and can hold down areas.
The recons job is to spot, but every class can spot, all of the gadgets for recon require others to be functional especially the soflam. Right now there is no situation that a recon/sniper would fill better then a assault, engi, or support even if DICE seperated the two kits, because there are no call outs specific to recon, you wil never hear i need a spot assist or i need a marksman/sniper set up over yonder. What I think recon needs is an increase in bullet velocity because some sniper rifles have very fast drops and would make them better at engaging moving targets. And remove the scope glint because its not that hard to see you kill cam and locate the sniper that killed you.