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Immortal Tombat

Ellipsis guys...

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Wednesday, December 5th 2012, 7:35pm

how about bastardization of it?

Oh how deliciously ironic....
Surely you mean bastardisation?

Pepin the Short

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Thursday, December 6th 2012, 2:28am

I don't understand why people speak of the capabilities of language in such a cautionary, didactic tone. Language offers us magnificent tools for communication with literally infinite options. Even the dreariest, most technical manuscript is an opportunity for creativity. But the nature of language is that one cannot just blindly stumble about, tossing words carelessly together into a sentence, and do legitimate harm. One has to marshall their words, carefully massage their tone and painstakingly craft their narrative, to be injurious in a fashion that will not be immediately disregarded.

Language is not a gun that can be mishandled and inadvertently used to harm someone. It is an instrument. It can be played well or poorly, or anything in between, but you can't recklessly slam on the keys and suddenly find that you've ruined another man's life.

The McGoat

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Thursday, December 6th 2012, 2:59am

I think I'm going to start doing that now too.

McGoat.

Failure117

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Thursday, December 6th 2012, 3:04am

@Cheap English is probably the hardest language to learn. We have so many different words for the same meanings and the ways we pronounce different words 'differently' would be extremely confusing to someone uneducated in English.
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Thursday, December 6th 2012, 3:34am

Honestly, that blog post only scratches the surface to the true power of language. Language is so powerful, communication is powerful, this is what makes humans so genius compared to other animals--we can speak to each other.

An Linguist Anthropologist would define language/words as sounds that hold symbolic meaning to them. Words, like the blog post has mentioned, have symbolic meaning to them. These linguist also believe that there is a stark difference in set of rules when it comes to writing, and talking.

I'm not sure where the debate aspect of this thread is, but I'll inform you guys about some other very powerful aspects of language.

Language often, if not always, holds some culturally charged dilemma to it. Language is power, language reveals a person's identity, as well as has the power as a political instrument.

Here are some articles about language and it's power that illustrate and talk to this:

Gloria Anzaldua "How to Tame a Wild Tongue"
http://wolfweb.unr.edu/homepage/calabj/2…ld%20tongue.pdf

James Baldwin "If Black English isn't A language..."
Baldwin Black English

bell hooks "Keeping close to home: class and education"
http://eres.lndproxy.org/edoc/WR100HooksClosetoHome-11.pdf

Amy Tan "Mother Tongue"
http://teachers.sduhsd.k12.ca.us/mcunnin…er%20tounge.pdf

Also look up Victor Villanueva "Whose Voice Is It Anyway?"


I have read all these articles so if you need help understanding something I can answer your questions.


Here's something I typed for class in a 1 minute free-write concerning the power of language and literature:

Writing is a fabulous process in which there is a phenomenal use of communication. It is a very powerful tool to suede people, inform people, or dictate people. The pursuit of such writing is a rigorous task calling for the utmost understanding of rhetorical devices, of the audiences, and of the subject an author may write about. As a writer it is cardinal that I ameliorate my writing knowledge and style in order to become a more effective and profound individual. This process will most likely never be completed since writing is an evolving and mystic thing—something that will take a life time to master. However, there are always goals to be reached and improvements to be made.



PS Highly Doubt anyone will read the articles. Someone prove me wrong.

PPS English has the most illogical language structure and rules which is why it is a very hard language to learn

Dice

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Thursday, December 6th 2012, 3:53am

I put the debate comment in because I expected the topic to get side tracked quickly and end up in a debate of some kind.

As for touching only to top layer of the subject matter. I know. It's wonderful. I love all this stuff, more now I have put some time into study on the topics. So much to learn. The thing is learning a dead language has shown me part of the evolution of words as well as my politics classes taught me how much people abuse words without thought to their real power.

As for the blog post being light on the matter. That's a combo of a few things. One. I don't know a whole lot on the topic only what I have worked out and read in passing (thanks for the articles). Two. I put this up first on my fet life account while I was busy trapped in my own thoughts and I was trying to make it understandable to those that where not looking for a intellectual post and last, did I mention I am still learning all this? Is really up my alley.

I am finding that English is a oddly simple language at its core. It's the subtle uses of tone and fragmented words that complicate. There is an experiment in my house right now where we all try and use full words in the house and talk like normal outside. It's... Hard. You get so use to saying "Won't" that the phrase "Will not" is near on dead. But if you where just starting to lean to speak English you would naturally think to use the longer and fuller sentence.

Last I find power games with words to be interesting. Really guys give it some thought. Under the surface how much thought does one put into the use of words? You just kind of take it for granted. Give it some thought, look into words and their history. It's shocking to see how the very way we think is actually controlled by the very words others have picked to mean ideas they themselves have had.

Dice.

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Suiizide

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Thursday, December 6th 2012, 7:22am

I love this kind of topic and has been something I have discussed with my teacher, much to her surprise and frustration. Words by themselves have a lot of power, as you said. The fact that somebody has effectively entirely altered the way I think about things by making a word conform to a definition, and therefore partly shaped my thought process based upon that definition is rather scary when you consider the power that they have held, whether they realise it or not. The power in words is inherently mind control at the most basic level, which while it may sound like a big deal, I don't believe it is.

It is a crude method, subject to the reader or listener's interpretation, and as such lacks total control. I won't deny that the moment I started reading your post I couldn't help but compare it to the concept of Newspeak, and being able to totally control somebody's mind by the elimination of words. Above, I mentioned that the creation of words is a crude method of mind control, but I believe the destruction of words would probably be a very refined form of mind control, if it were possible in modern Western society.

Sig

The T-90 is a challenge, the BTR-90 is going to kill everyone in a 100 meter radius and go flying off a hill into a helicopter only to drive off while the corpse of the Cobra it just went through is being dragged through the beach on Oman.
The game will include a fully automatic An-94 launcher, literally firing Abakans at 600 RPM.
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I expect rep.
If J3ST3R is dead, I think I just heard the entity that is grammar let out a sigh of relief...
To say nothing of the inordinate expense incurred by adding functionality to the gun that I may not ever use.
IKEA is the problem! Its all Desksdesksdesksdesksdesksdesksdesksdesks but oh, oh the second you say you want a table they chuckle and say "A table? You mean a kitchen table? How about a bedside table? Oh! Oh you must mean a dining room table!" and I'm like "NO! NO I JUST WANT A STANDARD, BLACK, BORING TABLE!" and they look at me then smile and go "You mean this? £170..." :(
Also, why does the RANDOM thread have a topic?

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Cheapnub

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Thursday, December 6th 2012, 1:18pm

Cheap English is probably the hardest language to learn. We have so many different words for the same meanings and the ways we pronounce different words 'differently' would be extremely confusing to someone uneducated in English.


I am finding that English is a oddly simple language at its core. It's the subtle uses of tone and fragmented words that complicate.

I agree with you here Dice.

Failure, the individual words might have multiple meanings, but I have to things to say on that.

First of all, most germanic languages have a lot more meanings per word (i.e. one word, 7 meanings), with quite a few of those words out there.
Secondly, the words are not what make a language hard. Words can be learned, and as soon as you use/hear them often enough you will know their meaning effortlessly. What I meant to indicate is, like Dice said, the very basics of the english language is relativily easy.

Take for example the level of English at highschools here. The basic 14-16yo student here barely knows any English (the English education here is just blatantly awful), but they will be able to say like "hi sir, i am bob, i am from the Netherlands, i like your country", but that's it.
Yes, hearing someone talk like this will shiver your spine, add in an accent and it will just blatantly hurt to hear them talk...but its English. At its very basics, but to a level of decent basic communication.

However, when you take it further it changes a bit. The perfection of the English language is the hardest part, arguably that specific part is harder than that of other languages. This is the part I personally struggle with.
I've personally reached the capability of speaking English without having to think, I just grab an idea and put that into English words and sentences...but I haven't perfected it yet. I will make occasional mistakes, grammar error, spelling errors, messing up sentences, etcetera...while the basics were incredibly easy to understand.

So, in response to your post failure: I have to disagree. Getting someone to the level of basic communication in English is easier than getting someone on that same level with, for example, French, German, Greek..or dutch :whistling: Perfection is nice, but it's not a necessity for communication

I see the exact same with immigrants here really. Over here we have truckloads of people that come from Poland, turkey, morocco, etcetera. They will try to speak dutch, but some of them just can't do it...but when I go like "bro, would you prefer it if I'd speak English?" they will actually be capable of decent communication.

There is an experiment in my house right now where we all try and use full words in the house and talk like normal outside. It's... Hard. You get so use to saying "Won't" that the phrase "Will not" is near on dead. But if you where just starting to lean to speak English you would naturally think to use the longer and fuller sentence.

I have to say..this is recognizable :|
In the first few years of me actually starting to use English as a communication tool (i.e. me being 12-14yo and being on games talking to teambuddies) I was using "they are" more than "they're" and such. I really have no explanation for this behavior, other than it sounds more comfortable.
It's simple and it's basic, you can't really mess up with it. Later on, when the language starts feeling more and more comfortable, "they're" will be more comfortable...but to then switch back to the longer version..gawd
A couple of years back in English class, we had to write a 'business letter'. We had to write politely, politically correct...and not for our lifetime use "they're" or "i'm"...that is really hard to do, you have to actually think about -not- doing it....must be an interesting experiment I must say

Just out of curiosity Dice, what is the punishment for you guys if you do use shortened words in your house? Free target practice with paintballs? :D

btw guys, two notes
Firstly, I noticed I talk a lot about my own experiences here...I don't mean to brag about my English capabilities or anything similar, I'm only using it as a comparison-tool for easier explaining
Secondly Dice I have to say...you made a great topic. Sure, not everyone might be discussing what you originally intended (the history and creation of the language), just like how I personally don't quote all your posts here just because I simply haven't really thought about the exact subjects you raise.
But overall, this topic is really neat. An intelligent decent conversation about something everyone here is familiar with :)

Failure117

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Thursday, December 6th 2012, 11:06pm

The perfection of the English language is the hardest part, arguably that specific part is harder than that of other languages. This is the part I personally struggle with.


This is what I meant by hard to learn, sorry for not clarifying enough.
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hunturk

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Thursday, December 6th 2012, 11:14pm

I think that language is definitely not the most important part of communication. In fact only 7% of our communication is verbal, the rest is through facial expressions, body language and tone of voice.
Personally, i don't take a stance on whether or not there is a creating entity because i'm humble enough to realize, in my fucking insignificance, the concept escapes my comprehension with a lead of 9001 light years.
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