Welcome to symthic forums! We would love if you'd register!
You don't have to be expert in bit baking, everyone is more than welcome to join our community.

You are not logged in.

Hey! If this is your first visit on symthic.com, also check out our weapon damage charts.
Currently we have charts for Battlefield 3, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, Medal of Honor: Warfighter and Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3

  • "ARE5R06" started this thread

Posts: 940

Date of registration
: Dec 14th 2014

Platform: PS3

Location: The Heart of Europe

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 8

  • Send private message

21

Thursday, July 21st 2016, 8:08pm

Shotguns in BF4, use RNG to distribute the pellets. But in order to fight their inconsistency, DICE LA increased the pellet count. Why to use the RNG element in the first place, if steps need to be taken to counter the Random Element. A pre distributed Area of Pellets would have had the same effect to fight inconsistency.


IIRC this was to bring the damage you dealt closer to what it should have been.

Low pellet count with high damage means that there are big "steps" that leave huge gaps between what damage you should have done.

Just as an example, 8 pellets that do 16 damage. You fire and should be dealing 75 damage. The two closest numbers are 64 and 80.

By increasing pellet count and reducing damage, your damage can wind up much closer to the intended damage than before.

At least this is what I remember.


Thanks for the heads up. Appreciate that. Result: No matter what kind of distribution (random or pattern) its better for consistency to have more pellets with lower damage.

Still, doesnt tell why the pattern is RNG to begin with.

AND I was using it as an example of RNG use, where its not necessary.

Miffs approach because easy programming (in case of CTE using whats available) is reasonable.

Too bad the few examples I know about (BF4 weapons and CSGO spread) have shown to been implemented in order to fight macro/cheat-tool use, weapon "feeling" and Balancing purposes.

I actually thought there must be a larger Philosophic scale behind RNG, but I didnt came up on my own with these reasons.

Thanks symthic for unravelling the knot in my brain.
still playin' Motorstorm

Posts: 282

Date of registration
: Mar 17th 2015

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 10

  • Send private message

22

Thursday, July 21st 2016, 9:47pm

I actually thought there must be a larger Philosophic scale behind RNG, but I didnt came up on my own with these reasons.


There is.

The key is that the randomness produces unpredictability. But unpredictability is bounded by probability. As there are different events that have different probabilities a choice is needed. And the choice has a risk (of failure or damage) or an expected gain value. There is a game (in the sense of game theory, not in the sense of videogame) to be played according to the theory of choice, which involves your decision and the decision of others.

I underlined the keywords.

Modestly, Lethality Index method works in this way: probability x damage = expected value=Index ... that is moderated by the probability that others get results.


Obviously normal players do not think in this way. Just play and call skill to the sum of two different things: manual and mental ability to lead the sight to a certain point, for instance, and the ability to make the right choice of time, place, weapon, burts lenght, etc ... because intuitively they feel that is what provides most benefit.

If there is not unpredictability, you just need pure skill .... and we usually called this.... sport.

A slightly gross oversimplification of this would be:

Low unpredictability ---> sport (Chess is an example. Chess is not a game, in this sense)

Medium unpredictability ---> game (known or felt probability)

Very high unpredictability ----> adventure (unknow probability)


(Too much synonyms and subtle concepts for my english ... but I think it can be understood).

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "leptis" (Jul 21st 2016, 9:55pm)


Posts: 258

Date of registration
: Jun 5th 2015

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Hoth

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 8

  • Send private message

23

Thursday, July 21st 2016, 11:02pm

signature 2.2

Things I support
ammo regen pls

Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

_____
When I play with it [Autoloading 8] I feel like I am batman taking out 1 after 1 baddie while they feel helpless and don't know who is talking out their mates.
Remove 3D spotting. It’s a mechanic that rewards bad eyesight.
Wanna help your team by sneaking through enemy territory to provide spawns? THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK FGT I HOPE YOU RUN OUT OF MOTION BALLS TOO EARLY TO BE SUCCESSFUL
Wanna be Javelin squad but only have two guys? BETTER NOT GET YOUR SOFLAM KILLED FGT THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK WITHOUT A SUPPORT DUDE DROPPING AMMO ON YOU EVERY 2 MINUTES
Please post your best M1916 clips Magazines *fixed*.


DICE pls

Squadmate Healthbars in the HUD
Minor console QoL improvements
Ping Tool idea
"Wants to talk" tag for squad menu
Adding Suppression Confirmation
Spotting suggestions

Posts I should finish sometime:
Squad priority vehicle system (and anti stealing suggestion)
Scoring system flaws (and concept)
Battlefield definition
New helicopter idea
Suppression rework
Flow, immersion and fun in battlefield
Specializations: ideas and system rework
Gadget reworks and ideas
Why limited infinite ammo would be awesome
Other bitesize ideas



yugas42

Moderator

(1,387)

Posts: 1,491

Date of registration
: Sep 1st 2012

Platform: PC

Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

  • Send private message

24

Thursday, July 21st 2016, 11:54pm

RNG mechanics are really, really good at keeping players invested in a game. I'm sure some of the articles linked here cover that. Have you ever played a game with an RNG mechanic and had that motivation to do something "just one more time", and then you've played the game for another hour or more past what you planned? It's the carrot on a stick approach to effort vs reward, and it's very good at keeping people playing your game.

There is of course a fine line between making your game interesting enough to continue playing and using randomness as a band-aid to solve problems like bad or low amounts of content. Warframe comes to mind as a game that frequently is criticized for its randomness, especially since the new Void rework that makes the grind even longer, yet at first glance seems easier than before. I find that a lot of people prefer a token based system like what League of Legends and other MOBA's do, every match played rewards a small amount of currency and the player is able to choose a reward, this still puts a time gate in front of rewards, but also lets the player feel like they have control, and will result in the player being happier because they can choose exactly what they want.

Of course avoiding RNG altogether is pretty much impossible for some games. The first example I can think of is The Binding of Isaac, which has been wildly popular for years now since the original came out back in 2011. Items are always randomly generated in that game, this makes every run unique and is a pretty common feature among Rouge-Like games. Not to mention that some of the oldest games around rely on randomness (albeit sometimes influenced randomness) such as Blackjack, Poker, or Slot machines; the likes of which generate millions of dollars for the average casino.

Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

(1,327)

Posts: 1,531

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

Reputation modifier: 13

  • Send private message

25

Friday, July 22nd 2016, 12:17am

RNG in weapon spread/recoil is not a flexible system. In BF, it has always acted as a hard cap on your effective engagement range. There is no real "adaptive solution" in controlling spread/recoil, rather, there is a "fixed solution," as there is always an optimal burst length for every range.

I think Miffyli's post is probably the best answer we have: there are more variables to work with when balancing weapons. However, this feels like a shallow reason to me, and it doesn't nearly satisfy my curiosity.

So is there a deeper reason for random spread/recoil? What am I missing?
You are missing that in BF weapons aren't balanced by "cost" or "rarity" like in CSGO (barring Battle Pickups). Guns in BF are balanced through opportunity cost.

The "adaptive solution" in BF is to adaptively pick your class, weapons and gadgets and adapting throughout the game to get the most out of your gear and preventing the enemy from getting the most out of their gear.

Without random deviation (both spread and recoil) it would be possible to learn how to get 100 % accuracy with any weapon (even worse, it would make macros incredibly powerful, potentially removing the "skill" in aiming/shooting altogether). You would always be best of picking the highest DPS weapon and learning the recoil of that gun. Increasing the recoil to ridiculous levels wouldn't do anything either, people would just tie a DPI toggle to LMB and/or RMB + consoles would get boned.

Sure, it's possible to have "the highest DPS weapon" vary with range using ROF and damage curves, but it wouldn't be possible to meaningfully balance the amount weapons that we see in BF games against each other using only those variables.


TL;DR would be: RNG elements adds more balance variables. Guns in BF aren't balanced by "cost"/"rarity", BF has more guns to chose from than most other FPSes and combat is very diverse and happens over a vast range of ranges (*harhar*) -> lots of variables are needed. More variables also leads to more unique feeling guns -> more interesting gunplay.

Again, you've restated what I said.

Let me ask it this way: apart from having more variables in balancing weapons to choose from, why is there random spread/recoil in the game? Why not have something like damage dropoff + (predictable) recoil and remove the RNG element?
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


  • "ARE5R06" started this thread

Posts: 940

Date of registration
: Dec 14th 2014

Platform: PS3

Location: The Heart of Europe

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 8

  • Send private message

26

Friday, July 22nd 2016, 12:19am

"just one more time"


I feel that in Role-Playing games, looting and leveling is sooo addictive.

Yet, when I think of PvP games, FPS especially, e.g. BF4 its never exactly the same game, but a few tactics have profen good for me and the game becomes much less engaging.

This made me grind my gears. The RNG involved there doesnt provide the engaging factor. Its the PvP itself. The RNG is used as a balancing tool, but doesnt provide the "just one more time" feeling.

The "just one more time" is the psychologic stimulation by a kill.
still playin' Motorstorm

C0llis

Up and down. Bounce all around

(3,334)

Posts: 3,100

Date of registration
: Apr 15th 2013

Platform: PC

Location: Sweden

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 15

  • Send private message

27

Friday, July 22nd 2016, 2:09am

Let me ask it this way: apart from having more variables in balancing weapons to choose from, why is there random spread/recoil in the game? Why not have something like damage dropoff + (predictable) recoil and remove the RNG element?
First, the random mechanics in the game are excellent for their intended purposes: thanks to random spread we can have spread increase, which is excellent for punishing poor trigger discipline, thanks to recoil (left/right, up & FSM) we can balance ease of use and effectiveness and give guns individual "feel", etc.
I.e. "the random mechanics in BF are justified in themselves through what they bring to the table".

Second, the public debate about RNG in games (at least FPSes) is essentially begging the question - it assumes that RNG is inherently bad while that simply isn't true. More RNG isn't inherently bad, it should be judged on what it adds to the game: meaningless grind or unintuitive gameplay= bad, varied gameplay or balance = good. It's a bit like spices: too much can ruin a meal but just the right amount makes a superb dish.

All in all I would say: "why not?"
Random spread and recoil are great at doing the things they set out to do: give more balance variables, give more unique feeling weapons, approximate real life mechanics, all of the above without introducing unintuitive mechanics, etc. and they don't do anything inherently bad (unless you vehemently advocate one type of skill over another).

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

NoctyrneSAGA

PvF 2017 Champion

(9,974)

Posts: 7,160

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

  • Send private message

28

Friday, July 22nd 2016, 2:33am

Part of using RNG to regulate spread is the expected values that leptis touched on earlier.

By having inaccurate weapons, it is possible to use powerful bullets that hit hard without becoming OP.

By tweaking the probability and damage value itself, it is possible to mimic the performance but it becomes super high accuracy with really weak bullets.

A weapon that does 24 damage 25% of the time (hit) and 0 damage 75% of the time (miss) would effectively do 6 damage.

The no-spread version would be a weapon that does 6 damage 100% of the time (hit).



While this site mostly relates to the science and numbers, there is still an aspect of presentation of the weapon.

Do we want to shoot marshmallows that will always hit or something with oomph even if it doesn't always connect?

Probability introduces a way to provide powerful bullets without increasing effective damage output.



The two models accomplish the same thing on the numerical side of things.

The question that we ask now, surprisingly, is are we happy with how this looks and feels?

Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

(1,327)

Posts: 1,531

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

Reputation modifier: 13

  • Send private message

29

Friday, July 22nd 2016, 9:03am

All in all I would say: "why not?"

This is the same conclusion I came to when thinking about this myself.

When doing a bit of research, I went back to MarbleDuck's developer interview, in which the dev stated that "the same damage for the same bullet, and worse controllability for high RoF, we felt would be more intuitive to players."

So there is no actual inherently better balancing scheme, simply what one prefers. In the case of BF4, I can see spread/recoil and similar damage models being used as a more authentic method in a game that tries to stay somewhat close to reality.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


Posts: 7,809

Date of registration
: Feb 25th 2012

Platform: PC

Location: italy

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

  • Send private message

30

Friday, July 22nd 2016, 12:54pm

well, it seems we reached a conclusion then, still, there's something that bugs me about what someone(yugas?) said in the thread

(think it was) "don't you feel it is addictive to have rng in rpgs, the same way it is in guns in battlefield?" hell the fuck NO.
that's the whole point why the division flopped!(considering how everyone tried to minimize the randomness by glitching as much as possible or boosting), and i personally love the spread mechanics in battlefield games, but really can't bear grinding, even more so when there isn't a set limit to the grind because the loot is randomized to an incredible extent, that's frastrating, unpredictable, boring and pointless, but as others have said here, spread while not being 100% predictable, it is somewhat counterable, can be understood(again to some extent) and isn't meaningless, all in all while adding variety and possibly depth to the game... saying the two are linked together and that if someone likes one they also like the other it's just plain stupid, especially when we're talking about 2 different game genres.

but then again, i might have just misunderstood as i don't even have the post at hand now.
"I'm just a loot whore."


stuff mostly unrelated to BF4 that interests nobody



bf4
on 13/05/2016
23rd M320FB user on pc(13/05/16)
rush mode score RANK:2794 TOP:2% OUT OF:215398
obliteration mode scoreRANK:994 TOP:1% OUT OF:159466
handgun medals RANK:2236 TOP:2% OUT OF:143874
longest headshot RANK:9512 TOP:4% OUT OF:257589
recon score RANK:10871 TOP:4% OUT OF:274899
general score per minute RANK:10016 TOP:4% OUT OF:294774

bf3
31/3/2012 4:58:

Headshot distance RANK:493* TOP:0%
Revives per assault minute RANK: 6019 TOP: 3%
Headshots / kill percentage RANK:25947 TOP:13%
MVP ribbons RANK:18824 TOP:11%

*= 6 if we not count the EOD BOT headshots

@kataklism

ARGUMENT DESTROYED 100

ENEMY KILLED [REASON] JSLICE20 100


WRITING SPREE STOPPED 500

link to full-size old avatar:
http://i.imgur.com/4X0321O.gif