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41

Sunday, December 2nd 2018, 11:24pm

Am I missing something here, or are the LMGs indeed very accurate from the hip while standing?


This is a little worrying - this should be an SMG bonus not an LMG bonus.


I have tried to test it but the results are, well, varying. They look rather alike in my book when comparing the MP28 to the KE7 at ten metres, when controlling the recoil in a ten round burst. Finding a wall big enough to do some actual groupings with controlling the recoil is a rather hard task. I would say the stats tell the truth, but my technique was flawed and the sample size not large enough.

If it is like this, I do not know what to say, could be oversight or deliberate.

This is a little funny, but if you look at the moving hipfire stats, you'll see that the MP28 way outclasses the KE7, which is more relevant, I think, because who ever fires from the hip will standing still?

The recoil data is a little more worrying, I think I'll make a separate post about it.

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42

Sunday, December 2nd 2018, 11:35pm

Recoil Data is Weird

So I was trying to draw some recoil-comparison visualizations, and the recoil stats are bizarre. For example look at all the weapons with no vertical recoil:

Source code

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wd$name[wd$ADSStandRecoilUp == 0]

 [1] WinchesterM1907 Ruby            SteyrM1912      Thompson
 [5] LugerP08        MG34            WebleyMkVI      WaltherP38
 [9] KragJorgensen   LeeEnfield No4  STG44           Suomi
[13] Gustloff AR     Gewehr9530      STEN            Kar98k
[17] Liberator       BrowningA5      M30 Drilling    M1911
[21] MG42

Really? Do none of these weapons have any vertical recoil? There are like two dozen pieces of individual recoil data per weapon, so it's entirely possible I'm missing something (I have looked at more than just this particular variable), but it does seem weird that they've removed what I would consider an important aspect of gunplay skill and weapon balance tweaking: controllable vertical recoil. You'd think this would be especially important for the short-to-medium-range fully automatics (StG44, Suomi, Sten, I'm looking at you guys). Weird.

Forger21

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43

Sunday, December 2nd 2018, 11:44pm

So I was trying to draw some recoil-comparison visualizations, and the recoil stats are bizarre. For example look at all the weapons with no vertical recoil:

Source code

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wd$name[wd$ADSStandRecoilUp == 0]

 [1] WinchesterM1907 Ruby            SteyrM1912      Thompson
 [5] LugerP08        MG34            WebleyMkVI      WaltherP38
 [9] KragJorgensen   LeeEnfield No4  STG44           Suomi
[13] Gustloff AR     Gewehr9530      STEN            Kar98k
[17] Liberator       BrowningA5      M30 Drilling    M1911
[21] MG42

Really? Do none of these weapons have any vertical recoil? There are like two dozen pieces of individual recoil data per weapon, so it's entirely possible I'm missing something (I have looked at more than just this particular variable), but it does seem weird that they've removed what I would consider an important aspect of gunplay skill and weapon balance tweaking: controllable vertical recoil. You'd think this would be especially important for the short-to-medium-range fully automatics (StG44, Suomi, Sten, I'm looking at you guys). Weird.

I've used several of those weapons a lot and they definitely do recoil upwards. Must be other modifiers/variables/etc at play. Also, we know that in BFV certain guns recoil in one direction at the beginning of a burst and then at some point start to recoil differently. Yet I only see a single number for left horizontal recoil and a single number for right horizontal recoil in these stats. Am i missing something, or are the stats in this thread missing information about the entire recoil pattern?
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Miffyli

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44

Monday, December 3rd 2018, 12:39am

So I was trying to draw some recoil-comparison visualizations, and the recoil stats are bizarre. For example look at all the weapons with no vertical recoil:

Source code

1
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wd$name[wd$ADSStandRecoilUp == 0]

 [1] WinchesterM1907 Ruby            SteyrM1912      Thompson
 [5] LugerP08        MG34            WebleyMkVI      WaltherP38
 [9] KragJorgensen   LeeEnfield No4  STG44           Suomi
[13] Gustloff AR     Gewehr9530      STEN            Kar98k
[17] Liberator       BrowningA5      M30 Drilling    M1911
[21] MG42

Really? Do none of these weapons have any vertical recoil? There are like two dozen pieces of individual recoil data per weapon, so it's entirely possible I'm missing something (I have looked at more than just this particular variable), but it does seem weird that they've removed what I would consider an important aspect of gunplay skill and weapon balance tweaking: controllable vertical recoil. You'd think this would be especially important for the short-to-medium-range fully automatics (StG44, Suomi, Sten, I'm looking at you guys). Weird.

I've used several of those weapons a lot and they definitely do recoil upwards. Must be other modifiers/variables/etc at play. Also, we know that in BFV certain guns recoil in one direction at the beginning of a burst and then at some point start to recoil differently. Yet I only see a single number for left horizontal recoil and a single number for right horizontal recoil in these stats. Am i missing something, or are the stats in this thread missing information about the entire recoil pattern?


As per title, these stats are crude and WIP, and indeed BFV has introduced number of new mechanics related to recoil and dispersion. This is one of them.

I am (slowly) working on adding rest of the variables in not-too-cluttered way. Meanwhile you can take a look at gunsway files of the weapons to see what kind of variables there are. Be warned though: Weapon may have "integrated modifiers" which always affect these stats but the numbers are not included in the gunsway file, so gunsway file numbers may not be 100% correct.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • InterimAegis - Weapon comparisons/scoring.
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • pmax - Statistical analysis of BF4 players/games.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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45

Monday, December 3rd 2018, 6:34am

Looking at the stats and damage graphs, I'm curious what sort of role the Krag–Jørgensen fills, having flat and very low damage, but not a lot really going for it to make up for that.
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VincentNZ

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46

Monday, December 3rd 2018, 9:59am

Am I missing something here, or are the LMGs indeed very accurate from the hip while standing?


This is a little worrying - this should be an SMG bonus not an LMG bonus.


I have tried to test it but the results are, well, varying. They look rather alike in my book when comparing the MP28 to the KE7 at ten metres, when controlling the recoil in a ten round burst. Finding a wall big enough to do some actual groupings with controlling the recoil is a rather hard task. I would say the stats tell the truth, but my technique was flawed and the sample size not large enough.

If it is like this, I do not know what to say, could be oversight or deliberate.

This is a little funny, but if you look at the moving hipfire stats, you'll see that the MP28 way outclasses the KE7, which is more relevant, I think, because who ever fires from the hip will standing still?

The recoil data is a little more worrying, I think I'll make a separate post about it.


Tendencially you are right, however if I know my hipfire whilst standing is the best there is, while the others get inaccurate very quickly, I can make use of that. It certainly gives the LMGs another edge.

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47

Monday, December 3rd 2018, 11:39am

As per title, these stats are crude and WIP, and indeed BFV has introduced number of new mechanics related to recoil and dispersion. This is one of them.

I am (slowly) working on adding rest of the variables in not-too-cluttered way. Meanwhile you can take a look at gunsway files of the weapons to see what kind of variables there are. Be warned though: Weapon may have "integrated modifiers" which always affect these stats but the numbers are not included in the gunsway file, so gunsway file numbers may not be 100% correct.

Okay, interesting. That makes sense, 'cause this looks similarly crazy:

Source code

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> wd$name[wd$ADSStandBaseSpreadInc == 0]
    [1] SIGKE7          RemingtonModel8 Ruby            SteyrM1912
    [5] Gewehr43        LugerP08        MG34            WebleyMkVI
    [9] M1Carbine       WaltherP38      TurnerSMLE      RSC1917
   [13] KragJorgensen   LeeEnfield No4  FG42            Gewehr9530
   [17] MauserSL1916    Kar98k          Liberator       BrowningA5
   [21] M30 Drilling    M1911           MG42            Gustloff
   [25] BREN            Lewis



Tendencially you are right, however if I know my hipfire whilst standing is the best there is, while the others get inaccurate very quickly, I can make use of that. It certainly gives the LMGs another edge.

It does seem a weird edge to give the LMGs.

NoctyrneSAGA

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48

Monday, December 3rd 2018, 11:47am

Remember what Miffy said

Weapon may have "integrated modifiers" which always affect these stats but the numbers are not included in the gunsway file, so gunsway file numbers may not be 100% correct.


The bipod is a permanent fixture to the KE7. And yes, it affects hipfire. And the number you are looking at is when the weapon is stationary.
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Monday, December 3rd 2018, 2:33pm

Remember what Miffy said

Weapon may have "integrated modifiers" which always affect these stats but the numbers are not included in the gunsway file, so gunsway file numbers may not be 100% correct.


The bipod is a permanent fixture to the KE7. And yes, it affects hipfire. And the number you are looking at is when the weapon is stationary.

I don't know how relevant this is, or if it's even possible in BFV, but I distinctly remember being able to have the bipod deployed in BF3 while not aiming down the sights. Of course, you had to have something appropriate to rest it on, but it did drastically improve one's aim and recoil handling even from "the hip" (which I put in quotation marks because I generally did this while lying down).

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Monday, December 3rd 2018, 8:09pm

"Looking at the stats and damage graphs, I'm curious what sort of role the Krag–Jørgensen fills, having flat and very low damage, but not a lot really going for it to make up for that."

6 bullets. Fast reload. Fast velocity. Flat trajectory. Looks cool