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NoctyrneSAGA

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11

Wednesday, November 7th 2018, 9:57pm

The StG doesn't lose just because its user messed up. The charts are best case scenarios of max performance. There are definitely cases where it is statistically at a disadvantage.
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Nov 8th 2018, 4:27am)


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Thursday, November 8th 2018, 9:57am

@NoctyrneSAGA

Depends on how niche the circumstance (<10m or >65m) and how often you think those ranges were forced on a player. Within certain ranges the realistic skill input to effectiveness output put the StG on par with enough flexibility that it was the better option if maximum effectiveness was your goal. This is how quickly the StG can hipfire a target and this is how quickly it can kill a target at some distance with only partial exposure. Now imagine what this would look like after 100hrs of this player practicing zeroing the StG at range.

While statistically it would lose in certain circumstances, how often are players forced into those circumstances without alternative or how much effort or skill does it take to guide an engagement into that circumstance relative to just choosing the StG and not having to work nearly as hard for a similar result. I personally like the challenge and would use less effective options, but I personally didn't see many G43, M1,or SMLE users in the beta relative to the StG amongst assaults who had to have the other weapons unlocked even on Narvik. Usually it was just like in the video and people were just putting higher magnification optics on the StG instead of using another weapon.

The "infinitely skilled" player analysis system is useful for comparison in a vacuum to understand design intention(which informs us that its not OP), but breaks down when you have to deal with netcode denying you a bullet here and there and two players actively trying to dodge each others bullets forcing at least a few bullets to miss. A semi auto has to input more effort against the StGs since its effective dps was impacted less by 1-2 bullets not landing and not needing to be as precise with your control of shot pacing and placement. This to me implies its unbalanced.
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "SotenTsukuyomi" (Nov 8th 2018, 10:07am)


NoctyrneSAGA

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Thursday, November 8th 2018, 10:16am

The funny thing about the footage you linked is that the first is already accounted for and the second could probably have been executed even faster. You're also looking at Stodeh who has made his aim well-known so he definitely approaches the performance of the charts.

Semiautos don't have spread increase. Shot pacing is unnecessary, you just click as fast as you can. In fact, all the BF4 players should feel right at home with them since they're all used to tapfiring for max performance. Also, the semiautos need to land 1-2 less bullets so...

Just saying, I would still say "Nerf StG" based on its performance relative to a small subset of weapons (some of which people didn't even bother to try out) is simply jumping the gun. The charts indicate there were quite a few hidden gems for people that looked for them instead of hammering Deploy.
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Thursday, November 8th 2018, 4:56pm

I used his footage specifically because he aims well and with his comments during gameplay I assume he thinks the weapons is a touch too good. The close range portion just means the StG is more than workable in CQB unless you are trying to joust with a SG or SMG who knows you are coming. He represents what I believe is how good players perform using the StG(with only a maximum of 2 weeks to acclimate if they only played the beta). When you get into the inevitable 50-100SS StG players they would be able to zero the weapon more effectively than what was shown in the video effortlessly.

Semi autos may not have spread increase but you still have to pace your shots in the sense that unless a target is standing absolutely still and/or has no cover, your cadence will lengthen your TTK if firing at max rpm causes you to miss a shot because you couldn't line up the cross-hairs. The more shots you miss the more likely something like the StG will outgun you due to saturation winning out with the StG player being able to fire 3rb on peaks even if only 1-2 hit and a semi auto is completely hit-or-miss. The same principle plays out even in bf4 wit the statistical likelihood to hit chest shots at max rpm being high on DMRs at mid/long range with HB but you will only achieve that peak TTK on a fully stationary target that doesn't react at all to being shot(dodge) at and isn't shooting back thus isn't realistic. I killed quite a few people with the G43 an ZH at max rpm, but it was due to them positioning themselves badly, me camping obscure vantage points(which wont be obscure for long after release) or it being a surprise engagement for both of us most of the time. Against the better players max rpm kills seldom happened(more-so with the G43 because of the BtK) because targets were obscured by cover and were mobile. I was not playing my best during the beta since I had just changed my sensitivity, but even on a good day the effort to accurately track a target is much higher than the StGs effort to zero full auto fire up to a reasonable range and on Narvik you could easily avoid the longer sight-lines until you got within 50m of potential shooters.

I have admitted multiple times this is only valid within the vacuum of what was shown in the beta and what I would do to slightly nerf the StG's ranged performance in that vacuum. The new weapons and the new maps will change how the weapons will play out on average even if they didn't change anything at all stats wise. This would imply I dont think a nerf should be implemented, if at all, until at least a month after the full release since the weapon isnt statistically OP and people need to live with it for a while and not immediately begin the irrational and destructive nerf this nerf that parade. Maybe DICE crafted other full auto weapons that compete with the StG in performance. That still leaves the question on what will they do about these autos overshadowing the semi autos unless the majority of maps are much closer to Narvik than Rotterdam in the amount of open space capture points and long effective sight-lines. Unless they increase the semi auto RoF(which would be a bad idea imo) or have a slower firing semi auto(130-180rpm) that could 1shsk out to ~40-60m(sr338 + 2.13HSM) the autos would still be better. Or unless DICE feels semi autos should only begin to equal the effort to effectiveness ratios of the mainline autos approaching 75-100m regardless. While I personally wouldn't like them relegating semi autos to a "less effective in practice" or "for people who want a challenge" niche, I can understand it based on them not wanting to give good players weapons with too high a skill ceiling and floor and making the general audience upset in the process(ex. bf3 dmr hate > bf4 dmr nerfs > sr338 near uselessness despite being recon only). Its their game and they can cultivate whatever playerbase and habits they want, but I wouldn't buy the game at that point since precision weapons are a big draw for me and the game already does other things I dont care for.
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This post has been edited 6 times, last edit by "SotenTsukuyomi" (Nov 8th 2018, 5:37pm)


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Thursday, November 8th 2018, 5:27pm

The StG 44 and other assault rifles have been nerfed to require 5 bullets to kill at close range for the release version.
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Thursday, November 8th 2018, 5:39pm

@Spectacle

Well that gives SMGs more leeway to shine and semi autos a better shot up close, but what about their damage:recoil properties at the 50-75m space?
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "SotenTsukuyomi" (Nov 8th 2018, 5:45pm)


NoctyrneSAGA

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Thursday, November 8th 2018, 9:14pm

@Spectacle

Well that gives SMGs more leeway to shine and semi autos a better shot up close, but what about their damage:recoil properties at the 50-75m space?


Nah, it means the StG has become irrelevant.

Also, if you look at his FG42 vid, he makes comments about how the StG isn't something to be afraid of at all. As in the FG42 is more than capable of matching it.

Anecdotal commentary in the end is just anecdotal commentary.
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Saturday, November 10th 2018, 11:33pm

@Spectacle

Well that gives SMGs more leeway to shine and semi autos a better shot up close, but what about their damage:recoil properties at the 50-75m space?


Nah, it means the StG has become irrelevant.

Also, if you look at his FG42 vid, he makes comments about how the StG isn't something to be afraid of at all. As in the FG42 is more than capable of matching it.

Anecdotal commentary in the end is just anecdotal commentary.


Like I said that change gives the other weapon more latitude in CQB to have a cleanly defined advantage to leverage rather than a relatively small statistical one when the medic is basically stuck with SMGs in regards to automatic weapons. . It wasn't full on beating SMGs in CQB but it was competing with them competently enough while having a much larger effective envelope making it overall a much better choice for a skilled player. The issue wasnt, the StG44 was unbeatable and this monolith inspiring terror, its just that its stability was too much at the high end of its range stepping on the toes of the semi automatics(depending on what DICE intends their peak range to be). In close range it was just good and was up to the StG user and the SMG use to maximize on their engagement profiles should they meet. The allrounder in this instance has more to work with however. Would have been better to ever so slightly buff the SMGs than nerf the StG in close range by 1 bullet.

To keep the exact same recoil stats a change to a lower starting dmg rising sharply to peak at 10m then having a slightly shorter damage drop off. This type of complex damage model could cause some consistency issues, but would give the devs more room to modify weapons into their proper effective ranges and requiring players to get a feel for different ranges of each weapon and weapon type. Max damage increase point could correlate to MV so it followed real life principles of over penetration at close range. That would have been enough to balance it with the same recoil stats as it seems DICE has overly nerfed the weapon from what I have read in the early access thread.

The video wasn't for his commentary on the StG all by itself, but just to show a skilled player using the gun at a wide variety of ranges and still being on par with every other weapon in the realistic engagement ranges while still seeing that his recoil control with the weapon has room to improve somewhat(not that its bad by any means).

What are the statistical(dmg,rec) and abstract(reload,ads speed) differences between the StG44 and the FG42? Do they balance out with the buffs the LMGs received in the release?I didnt get killed by or see much FG42 use in the beta and have to look at ranged gameplay because the range Stodeh was playing at was pretty close in the FG42 gameplay I saw.
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This post has been edited 5 times, last edit by "SotenTsukuyomi" (Nov 11th 2018, 12:35am)


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Sunday, November 11th 2018, 4:02am

Like I said that change gives the other weapon more latitude in CQB to have a cleanly defined advantage to leverage rather than a relatively small statistical one when the medic is basically stuck with SMGs in regards to automatic weapons. . It wasn't full on beating SMGs in CQB but it was competing with them competently enough while having a much larger effective envelope making it overall a much better choice for a skilled player. The issue wasnt, the StG44 was unbeatable and this monolith inspiring terror, its just that its stability was too much at the high end of its range stepping on the toes of the semi automatics(depending on what DICE intends their peak range to be). In close range it was just good and was up to the StG user and the SMG use to maximize on their engagement profiles should they meet. The allrounder in this instance has more to work with however. Would have been better to ever so slightly buff the SMGs than nerf the StG in close range by 1 bullet.


Indeed. The StG 44 was too powerful before in the sense that the gap between it and SMGs was simply too small to be relevant. If it's going to have so much more effective range than them, then it also needs to be appropriately worse up close.

As for balance within Assault, ease of use is a big part of what Assault Rifles offer over Semi-Auto Rifles (Self-Loading Rifle in BFV specifically refers to Recon's semi-auto rifles). The flip side of balancing something to be easier to use is it has to be "worse", in a purely statistical way in exchange; SARs are more demanding of their user, but have a higher skill ceiling as a result.

This is a fantastic explanation.
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NoctyrneSAGA

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Sunday, November 11th 2018, 4:29am

Like I said that change gives the other weapon more latitude in CQB to have a cleanly defined advantage to leverage rather than a relatively small statistical one when the medic is basically stuck with SMGs in regards to automatic weapons. . It wasn't full on beating SMGs in CQB but it was competing with them competently enough while having a much larger effective envelope making it overall a much better choice for a skilled player. The issue wasnt, the StG44 was unbeatable and this monolith inspiring terror, its just that its stability was too much at the high end of its range stepping on the toes of the semi automatics(depending on what DICE intends their peak range to be). In close range it was just good and was up to the StG user and the SMG use to maximize on their engagement profiles should they meet. The allrounder in this instance has more to work with however. Would have been better to ever so slightly buff the SMGs than nerf the StG in close range by 1 bullet.


Indeed. The StG 44 was too powerful before in the sense that the gap between it and SMGs was simply too small to be relevant. If it's going to have so much more effective range than them, then it also needs to be appropriately worse up close.

As for balance within Assault, ease of use is a big part of what Assault Rifles offer over Semi-Auto Rifles (Self-Loading Rifle in BFV specifically refers to Recon's semi-auto rifles). The flip side of balancing something to be easier to use is it has to be "worse", in a purely statistical way in exchange; SARs are more demanding of their user, but have a higher skill ceiling as a result.

This is a fantastic explanation.


The StG44 fully invested in CQB upgrades would still be inferior to an SMG similarly invested.

The small, subtle difference isn't something that people should dismiss but seeing as how the community seems to only understand night and day differences, I am not surprised.

The semiautos are not even close to being "hard to use." Anyone who played BF3/4 would understand this.

As I wrote in the Early Access version of this thread, the StG44 has lost any relevance at all ranges. There is more room for semiautos to shine than before but any reason to use the StG44 over them in close range is pretty much gone, especially now that we have the rest of the arsenal to play with. Nerfing the StG44 so hard based only on its performance relative to a small subset of the whole arsenal was clearly jumping the gun.

4 BTK in close range brings the weapon back in line with the rest of the arsenal and does not encroach on SMGs any more than the rest of the weapons do.
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