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VincentNZ

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Monday, October 22nd 2018, 6:14pm

Yep, agreed. When it becomes a health or equipment check, a game stops being a game. You also know I never understood spotting as anything but, a tactical tool with the added benefit of giving players a visual aid. After all, it is the average player that benefits the most, from 2D and 3D spotting, people jsut do not realize this.
I hate BFV in that regard from the beta, because I had to crank the brightness up to 100% which, was really hard on my eyes, as a workarouund to the really poor visibility, the intense lighting differences and all the visual effects. I found that visuals over gameplay approach really appalling, and I do not know, if this haze effect will do a lot to mitigate this.

As for the spread mechanic, I am fully aware of reaction times, however I still believe that low ROF automatic weapons do not synergize well in both systems and it is more noticeable than in BF4 because the differences are just too big. If the Suomi sits at 800RPM while most others are in the range of 500 it is much more diverse than the difference between the F2000 and the AK-12. As a Dev I would have just increased ALL slow automatic firerates by 100 to elminate this issue.
Otherwise the accumulated recil is just too easy to control, while at the same time the spread becomes an issue. It is just not very intuitive. That is why the new spread system should absolutely be put onto the SMGs and ARs as well, so that it correlates better.

I am actually intrigued right now, by the new mechanic, it might work, although I believe it is bad as a balancing tool between players and engagement ranges.

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Monday, October 22nd 2018, 8:23pm


Making physical fitness matter more and more is just adding more barriers to entry and elements that precede the actual contest of skill between players. Not only do you need good hand-eye coordination to play a shooter, now you need to not be colorblind. It honestly disappoints me that some people would simply respond to such concerns with comments like "Use/open your eyes" or "get gud" as if changing how healthy my eyes are was as simple as working out more often. All I can say about this sudden emphasis on having perfectly healty eyesight is "But why when other competitive games don't make finding enemies a fitness check?"

I mean, if having good eyesight is a "skill" then I guess SFV being playable competitively by a blind player must be the most unskilled, casual game in existence.


Not every game needs to be for everyone.

Not every game needs to rely on the same skillset.

Some games can rely on a wider skillset than others.

Some games are almost entirely hand-eye coordination with a modest amount of strategic processing required. Tetris comes to mind.

Some games are almost entirely strategic processing and meta-cognition with very little concern for reaction speed and hand-eye coordination. Chess comes to mind.

Some games combine eyesight, hand-eye coordination, strategic thinking, and teamwork. MilSim ARMA comes to mind.

I don't know if it is necessarily the best approach for BFV to more strongly emphasize eyesight, thereby making it less accessible to people with disabilities. It makes it a different game. I don't think Battlefield wants to be an actual competitive (i.e. E-Sports ready, professional grade) game.

SFV isn't any less "skillful" a game because an extremely dedicated blind person can become (apparently) competitive and go professional. It simply does not absolutely rely on that skill, but others (namely reaction time, muscle memory, reading your enemy's intentions). I'm sure there are deaf and colorblind SFV players as well. The game simply does not absolutely rely on auditive AND visuual perception. Either one can be sufficient. At least one of them is required.


More on topic: I expect the new "spread is now visually deductible" mechanic to work as "added random recoil", probably in all four directions. It's not going to be reactable either way, as even extremely trained people (e.g. professional race drivers) hardly ever react faster than 170ms. I'm looking forward to slow motion videos of how "spread" / recoil randomization affects gunplay.
Zormau - Battlelog / Battlefield 4

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Of course, this ignores the non-constant cross-sectional first moment of area across the chest as well as non-constant material properties of the boob; it would be difficult to perform a more detailed analysis (as in, I'd have to have a shape function AND I'd need to derive a function for elastic modulus as a function of lateral breast coordinate) but whatever. It's 2am and I'm lazy.


I always believed science should be very hands on experience.

You should also answer this question I had posed in that thread: Would you be willing to pay your surgeon more if he was going to use a chainsaw for the opening incision of surgery? Clearly using a chainsaw isn't truly suited for surgery but that doesn't really matter. If he's "skilled" enough to be able to use the wrong tools of the trade, he should be rewarded for that skill right?

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Zormau" (Oct 22nd 2018, 8:31pm)


NoctyrneSAGA

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Monday, October 22nd 2018, 9:26pm

@Zormau

That doesn't mean that I have to beat the game's visuals before I can beat other players.

Like I said before, my aim is fine but when what I'm supposed to aim at is effectively invisible to me but not to others, we have a problem.

I just don't see the point in making things difficult to see. Having healthy eyesight isn't a skill.



Yeah, the visually deductible spread isn't going to be something people can react to unless they are superhuman.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

"Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours.

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If it flies, it dies™.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Oct 22nd 2018, 9:34pm)


Darktan13

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Monday, October 22nd 2018, 11:04pm

Quoted

Not every game needs to be for everyone.


True, but every game should strive to be as accessible as possible. There's quite a large difference between "This game is my type of game" and "I can Physically play this game"

PvP games are at their most interesting when 'contested' skills are on display, when the players are interacting with/against one another and those interactions matter.

The more reliant a game is on 'uncontested' skills like reaction speeds, keen eyesight, aiming (BF3-type suppression brought aiming closer to a contested skill, notably), APM and general physical fitness tests. - The more exclusionary the game is. This has no bearing on the quality of high level play, it doesn't necessarily make it better or worse, but it means that fewer people are capable of physically passing the "tests" required to actually be playing the high-level game.
They act as a barrier you must pass before you can play the real game.
Often the very best teams and players are not the ones with the best shots, the fastest reactions or the highest APM, BF3s ViP (A Top EU 8v8 team) were definitely not the best at these barrier tests, but they played the real high level game very well, with better teamwork, communication and tactics.

The closer the "casual" game resembles the "high level" game the better. the more people who can immediately start playing the real game the better. What makes the best players the best, is not their speed or their eyesight, what makes them interesting to watch isn't how fast their hands move on a keyboard or controller. Barriers of some kind are almost inevitable for many real-time games, but we should strive to keep these as low as possible.

Quoted from "J0hn-Stuart-Mill"


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Tuesday, October 23rd 2018, 12:52am

@Zormau

That doesn't mean that I have to beat the game's visuals before I can beat other players.

I just don't see the point in making things difficult to see. Having healthy eyesight isn't a skill.

Your enemy is still playing the same game as you are. If he manages to find a background he more or less melds into, good for him. If he does it with above-random frequency, he is playing smart.
Since you see 3D spotting as a remedy for the visually impaired, I will counter by stating that 3D spotting also works if your eyesight is good.

Also several aspects of visual perception can be trained, so aside from hard barriers through disabilities it has indeed aspects of skill. If it were not a trainable skill, why would we rely on fighter jet pilots as particularly qualified to benchmark the shortest image display a human can register and identify?
I'm not saying it can't be made more accessible, I'm just not content with dorito shooter 4.0 being the solution.
The closer the "casual" game resembles the "high level" game the better. the more people who can immediately start playing the real game the better. What makes the best players the best, is not their speed or their eyesight, what makes them interesting to watch isn't how fast their hands move on a keyboard or controller. Barriers of some kind are almost inevitable for many real-time games, but we should strive to keep these as low as possible.

I would like to agree, but the market seems to disagree. The closer the "casual" game resembles the "high level" game, the more likely it is to not have a large and serious competitive scene from what I can tell.

Comp. Warcraft 3 looked nothing like what I ever played. Same goes for SC2 these days. Competitive Street Fighter has very little to do with what I might be doing "casually". Competitive Counter-Strike is a very different beast from casual lobbies. Competitive DOTA or LOL have nothing to do with what I've ever done in those games. Have you seen competitive Quake 3/Live/Champions?
These are the heavy-hitters of competitive E-Sports gaming. Not Battlefield.

Aside from the OWL I know of no existing Overwatch leagues of note, so it's basically just ActiBlizz trying their hardest to make their game look "competitive". HOTS is looked down upon in the MOBA E-Sports environment because it's more "casual friendly".
I'm not sure how well R6S is doing competitively, but that's where I'd expect the closest similarities between competitive and "casual" play.
Zormau - Battlelog / Battlefield 4

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Of course, this ignores the non-constant cross-sectional first moment of area across the chest as well as non-constant material properties of the boob; it would be difficult to perform a more detailed analysis (as in, I'd have to have a shape function AND I'd need to derive a function for elastic modulus as a function of lateral breast coordinate) but whatever. It's 2am and I'm lazy.


I always believed science should be very hands on experience.

You should also answer this question I had posed in that thread: Would you be willing to pay your surgeon more if he was going to use a chainsaw for the opening incision of surgery? Clearly using a chainsaw isn't truly suited for surgery but that doesn't really matter. If he's "skilled" enough to be able to use the wrong tools of the trade, he should be rewarded for that skill right?


NoctyrneSAGA

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Tuesday, October 23rd 2018, 1:02am

If he manages to find a background he more or less melds into, good for him. If he does it with above-random frequency, he is playing smart.


This would be true if it weren't for the fact that blending into the background typically requires like colors. Wearing red and blending into green normally doesn't happen.

Since you see 3D spotting as a remedy for the visually impaired, I will counter by stating that 3D spotting also works if your eyesight is good.


This is literally reaffirming what I said earlier.

But make that target difficult to see and that basically makes how well I can aim irrelevant. It's not as if the guy with healthy 20/20 vision is disadvantaged by having an obvious target to shoot at.


Also several aspects of visual perception can be trained, so is we discount hard barriers from disabilities it has indeed aspects of skill. If it were not a trainable skill, why would we rely on fighter jet pilots as particularly qualified to benchmark the shortest image display a human can register and identify?


Knowing what to look for is separate from whether you are physically capable of it.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

"Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours.

Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

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Tuesday, October 23rd 2018, 1:32am

Knowing what to look for is separate from whether you are physically capable of it.

Indeed. Like I said, I'm not saying "don't make it more accessible", I'm saying that I'm no longer content with 3D spotting's glowing doritos. It's not the ends I object to, but the means.
Zormau - Battlelog / Battlefield 4

Memorable quotes not taken yet:


Of course, this ignores the non-constant cross-sectional first moment of area across the chest as well as non-constant material properties of the boob; it would be difficult to perform a more detailed analysis (as in, I'd have to have a shape function AND I'd need to derive a function for elastic modulus as a function of lateral breast coordinate) but whatever. It's 2am and I'm lazy.


I always believed science should be very hands on experience.

You should also answer this question I had posed in that thread: Would you be willing to pay your surgeon more if he was going to use a chainsaw for the opening incision of surgery? Clearly using a chainsaw isn't truly suited for surgery but that doesn't really matter. If he's "skilled" enough to be able to use the wrong tools of the trade, he should be rewarded for that skill right?


Darktan13

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Tuesday, October 23rd 2018, 1:41am


Comp. Warcraft 3 looked nothing like what I ever played. Same goes for SC2 these days. Competitive Street Fighter has very little to do with what I might be doing "casually". Competitive Counter-Strike is a very different beast from casual lobbies. Competitive DOTA or LOL have nothing to do with what I've ever done in those games. Have you seen competitive Quake 3/Live/Champions?
These are the heavy-hitters of competitive E-Sports gaming. Not Battlefield.


You're thinking on the wrong level.

The difference between the Gold Menat player and Justin Wong is not the combos he can do. You can tell the game is not being played on the same level almost instantly, but both Jwong and the Gold player have the same tools and options available to them. There's nothing the Gold menat cannot physically do that Jwong is doing to win tournaments. They are playing the same game, just on a (wildly) different level of skill.

The difference between Competitive SC2 and CS-GO players and casuals however? the casuals cannot use or maintain that APM level, the casuals can't take those shots even remotely close to the CS-GO pros. They don't have the same tools and options available to them. On top of not playing at the same level of skill, tactics and strategy, they are not playing the same game.

DOTA and LoL players are much closer to their casual base than CS-GO or Battlefield players are.

DOTA, LoL, SFV -Unlike the rest you listed, these games when played casually, are using most/all of the same basic tools & options that the tournament players are, the Tournament players are just better, smarter with stronger teamwork and deeper mindgames. Their gameplay more closely resembles the one the casuals are playing than the other games.

Battlefield being the worst offender of course by far.

Quoted from "J0hn-Stuart-Mill"


VincentNZ

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Tuesday, October 23rd 2018, 9:53am

This is quite the interesting topic and I wholeheartedly agree with Darktan, a game needs to be accessible and playable for everyone, at least if you want to reach the whole market. What Darktan called contested skills is indeed something for me that adds another layer to games and allows for more players to reach a certain level.

In BF3 and especially 4 I thought I could take on any other player, and that was not because my traditional skillset was very good, but the secondary skills like tactical movement, suppressive fire and a more attentive approahc in general, were actually supported by the game mechanics, which made the game really deep and stayed very accessible, and it actually helped everyone. Pure genious in terms of inclusive gameplay design.

Actually it was BF1 that, when one thinks about it, totally messed with the traditional shooter skillset by adding these heavy limits on the weapons and the curious spread mechanics. I think this was rather inaccessible, but it certainly allowed for some really deep thinking about engagements, that is one soft skill really priorised and put forth. Also revolutionary, but maybe not very successful.

I do not necessarily think the new mechanics in gunplay are totally detrimental, and they might turn out to be rather good, but the lack of a second layer of skill, that was a key feature of BF for a long time makes the game really one-dimensional and chaotic because of the sheer scale. To add insult to injury the visuals and audio effects are so over the top or bugged that all the cues that should be there are noticeably harder to identify, things like footsteps, positional audio, identifying movement etc..

I would say though that games like CS, LoL and SFV are also very accessible, because the scale is rather small and focused. Yeah there is no spotting in CS:GO, because there does not need to be, there are two ways around the map and when someone speaks of crate No2 everybody knows what the deal is. Try that on Dragon Valley with 64 players and you might hit an obstacle.

SOme more questions though that about spread in BFV though:
-Base spread is still base inaccuracy, right? It is not a base that is added to every shot like recoil on top of the new spread increase factor.
-Wouldn't this effectively mean that there are now three models at work? Recoil, front sight recoil and base spread?

NoctyrneSAGA

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Tuesday, October 23rd 2018, 12:45pm

What is front sight recoil?
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

"Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours.

Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.