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Miffyli

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1

Sunday, October 21st 2018, 3:32pm

Battlefield 5 Open Beta Weapon Stats (WIP)

Here's a dump of weapon stats from BFV Open Beta. A bit late to the party and in very rough format, but you can start digging for things.

The values should include all integrated modifiers, and the additional modifiers from tech tree can be seen by hovering over tooltipped values.

Find the stats here
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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Sunday, October 21st 2018, 4:30pm

You've outdone yourself by dumping this with tooltips. Great work. I'll post anything fun that I find here.

General:
  • Crouching and going prone reduce vertical recoil

Specializations:
  • Fast bullets also decreases bullet drag
  • Detachable magazines also seem to decrease an alternate deploy time

Very rough stats - note that we know fully-automatic weapons have had their damage curves changed since the Beta:

Spoiler Spoiler


SMG

Source code

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 		Sten		Suomi		EMP		MP40
ROF		539		770 (981)	568		539
TTK 10 m	334		234		317		334
TTK 20 m	445		312		423		445
TTK 30 m	557		390		528		557
TTK 50 m	668		468		634		668
TTK 70 m	779		545		739		779
HRec	        0.2 (0.13)	0.5 (0.4)	0.175 (0.122)	0.175 (0.105)
VRec  	        0.03 (0.024)	0.05 (0.04)	0.05 (0.04)	0.04 (0.032)
ADS Base Spread	0.2 (0.05)	0.2		0.2 (0.05)	0.2 (0.05)
Velocity	400		380		380		400
Capacity	32		20 (50)		32		32  


AR

Source code

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	        STG44
ROF	        599
TTK 10 m	301
TTK 20 m	401
TTK 30 m	401
TTK 50 m	501
TTK 70 m	501
HRec	        0.175 (0.105)
VRec	        0.07 (0.056)
ADS Base Spread	0.1 (0.025)
Velocity	620 (720)
Capacity	31


LMG

Source code

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		KE7		FG42		BREN
ROF		568 (638)	670		514
TTK 10 m	317		269		350
TTK 20 m	423		358		467
TTK 30 m	423		358		467
TTK 50 m	529		449		584
TTK 70 m	529		449		584
HRec		0.183 (0.147)	0.25 (0.188)	0.127 (0.082)
VRec		0.016 (0.013)	0.015 (0.012)	0.02 (0.016)
ADS Base Spread	0.16 (0.04)	0.16 (0.04)	0.16 (0.04)
Velocity	740		740		740 (820)
Capacity	25		20		30


Semi-auto (ZH stats unavailable)

Source code

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		G43		Turner		M1		ZH
ROF		257 (299)	299 (359)	449		
TTK 10 m	467 (401)	401 (334)	401		
TTK 30 m	468 (401)	401 (334)	401		
TTK 50 m	469 (401)	602 (501)	401		
TTK 70 m	470 (401)	602 (501)	535		
HRec	        0.1	        0.1	        0.1		
VRec	        0.4 (0.32)	0.35 (0.028)	0.15 (0.12)		
ADS Base Spread	0.1 (0.025)	0.1 (0.025)	0.1 (0.025)		
Velocity	760 (840)	700	        610 (680)		
Capacity	10 (11)		10 (20)		16 (31)			


Sidearms

Source code

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		P38		Ruby
ROF		359		449
TTK 7 m		501		401
TTK 10 m	501		535
TTK 20 m	669		668
TTK 30 m	836		802
TTK 50 m	1003		935
TTK 70 m	1003		935
HRec		0.1		0.1
VRec		0		0
ADS Base Spread	0.3		0.3
Velocity	250		250
Capacity	9		10

This post has been edited 17 times, last edit by "InterimAegis" (Oct 22nd 2018, 6:18am)


VincentNZ

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Sunday, October 21st 2018, 6:43pm

Does a spread of 0.3 mean a 0.3° inaccuracy or is it a multiplicator or another measuring unit? It kind of really confirms my game experience, BFV has a similar amount of spread and spread mechanics as BF3 and 4.

Do you allow for your work or parts of it to be copied to the BF5 forums? In any case great work and greatly appreciated.

Edit: Also why does the Bren not have any form of spread increase or are there other values at work?

Edit2: Are there any new stats in these datasheets and do we know what they all do? I have little experience with them from previous games, but it definitely looks more extensive.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "VincentNZ" (Oct 21st 2018, 6:49pm)


Miffyli

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Sunday, October 21st 2018, 7:13pm

@InterimAegis

Woo you are still around ^^. Thanks for the kind words!

@VincentNZ

Spread decrease works differently now, but recoil decrease is same as in BF1. Judging by the values we have (coeff and exp), it probably is something similar to how recoil decreases.

Feel free to share parts of it, but I'd like a reference back to this forum post ^^

There are bunch of new variables in there. The devs did better job at cleaning up the stats and gathering them to sensible places. Now we just have to figure out what they do exactly.

As for BREN: Looking at the files, it indeed does not seem to have spread increase while ADSing. There are some little quirks here and there in files, so mark that as "possible WIP".
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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Sunday, October 21st 2018, 7:15pm

Edit: Also why does the Bren not have any form of spread increase or are there other values at work?

LMGs, Bolt-Actions, and Semi-Autos have no spread increase in BFV. The spread is reflected only by front sight 'recoil'.

VincentNZ

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Sunday, October 21st 2018, 7:57pm

Edit: Also why does the Bren not have any form of spread increase or are there other values at work?

LMGs, Bolt-Actions, and Semi-Autos have no spread increase in BFV. The spread is reflected only by front sight 'recoil'.


I read that from the devtalk as well, but it makes no sense to me, really. How does it work? Will the barrel or the front sight just slightly cant? What if you use a telesopic or holographic sight, where there basically is no front sight to see? And when it is also works "like recoil" does that mean it increases with the recoil values? For example, you fire a 10 round burst with the bren and accumulate a total recoil value of 3, would "front sight recoil" be along these lines?

What if you recoil control is on point, which seems reasonable with low ROF weapons, you would still have quite a bit of "front sight recoil" and your bullets would not hit, right?. They just never explained that stuff properly, and I can not think of a way where this mechanic works noticeably different from BF4 spread mechanics.
I would say it is only different on semi-auto, where spread and spread increase never played a role like with ARs and SMGs.

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Sunday, October 21st 2018, 8:31pm

I read that from the devtalk as well, but it makes no sense to me, really. How does it work? Will the barrel or the front sight just slightly cant? What if you use a telesopic or holographic sight, where there basically is no front sight to see? And when it is also works "like recoil" does that mean it increases with the recoil values? For example, you fire a 10 round burst with the bren and accumulate a total recoil value of 3, would "front sight recoil" be along these lines?


Effectively, bullet deviation is produced via recoil mechanics that grow in time (predictable early in a burst and then increasingly random). Bullets will now generally go where the sight aims. There is still spread as we know it for SMGs and ARs, but it is toned down significantly compared to BF1.

More than that, I cannot say...

NoctyrneSAGA

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Sunday, October 21st 2018, 8:56pm

Based on combing footage frame-by-frame, it seems that either spread is ignored entirely (unlikely given that it would make the spread attachments completely pointless) or spread is being combined with recoil in such a way that the weapon's movement matches what the RNG will be (more likely explanation given how it's described). This achieves the much lauded "no random bullet deviation" since point of impact is basically point of aim while keeping spread as a balancing factor.
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VincentNZ

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Monday, October 22nd 2018, 11:37am

Yep, that is what I thought, but this still leaves questions. If, say your have an accumulated recoil of 1.0 would the spread of 0.3 be added on top of that, wouldn't that make it counterable and therefore hurt some player types more than others, instead of being a balancing tool? Basically a noob-stopper.

Then why would you exclude the SMGs from that which would profit the most, since the rate of fire is so low that the recoil is always easy to counter, but that makes any spread more noticeable, to the point of it being an incredibly uninstinctive weapon to shoot, while the Suomi would play exactly like the P90 of BF4, but severely better performing in comparison.
If they added the new mechanic, the five virtually identical SMGs would all have more recoil and timing bursts would come more naturally, while keeping their accurate nature. High ROF SMGs would be harder to control but keep their niche.

I do not know if this is a needed mechanic on the semi-autos though, where the timing is mostly determined by the vertical recoil and your aim reset time than on spread. With the current damage model, which allows 2HK for many semi-autos especially it has no relevance. Further, this can render BAs obsolete, as there damage output is comparably low. I guess it makes more sense the higher the rate of fire is, but I would have rather seen the Turner and M1 Carbine to have an "automatic" mode, so that you can fire at the maxiumum firerate, without the need to click so hard, while doing so little damage.

I mean I am a fan of a the dualism spread and recoil offered, but I am not against a re-do. But I would have gone all the way to implement this system instead of keeping both mechanics in place, as this will just again cause inconsistency. I also think that the system does not synergize well with the full-auto weapons of the game, because of the low ROF and maybe even the smaller mag sizes. The problem of the SAR and the Ultimax have always been that their gained accuracy through low recoil, always battled the increased noticed spread, while not outdamaging the high ROF burst weapons.
With BFV, the difference will be even more noticeable I believe in the SMGs. And for the LMGs, well you can slap recoil on a 400-600 fire weapon all you want the climb will still be rather controllable, but will hurt the lower ROFs more. I hope that that criticism somewhat relatable.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Monday, October 22nd 2018, 12:16pm

Theoretically, yes the weapon is now perfectly counterable if you have frame perfect reactions.

However, human reaction times are a known number. Average reaction time polled on humanbenchmark is 284ms. This means if we have someone using the StG 44 for example, by the time they have processed where bullet number 2 is going, bullet number 3 and 4 have already been fired.

My best time on humanbenchmark is 250 and that is simply clicking when a color change happens. I don't need to process how off target my sight is, in what direction does my mouse need to move to correct, how much does the mouse need to move, etc. all of which take time. I would therefore be unable to correct the StG's recoil + spread perfectly.

Even if we were to take the 450 RPM Benet Mercie of BF1, you are still only giving 130ms to react. For someone like me, the weapon would have to be firing at 240 RPM for perfect compensation to be possible and 210 RPM for the average determined by humanbenchmark.

If there is someone out there who can react faster than 100ms, yes the mechanic would definitely be somewhat of a "noob-stopper" which to me is a very sad trend towards the game being health/fitness exams. It shares a lot in common with people talking about how removing spotting "introduces skill" back into the game and how making things easy to see is "casual." I was even told that my colorblindness and myopia were my own problem that I had to invest time, effort, and money into working around and that it isn't something the devs should consider. I think statements like that are just sad. My aim isn't any worse than the guy next to me so long as I can see the target. But make that target difficult to see and that basically makes how well I can aim irrelevant. It's not as if the guy with healthy 20/20 vision is disadvantaged by having an obvious target to shoot at.

Making physical fitness matter more and more is just adding more barriers to entry and elements that precede the actual contest of skill between players. Not only do you need good hand-eye coordination to play a shooter, now you need to not be colorblind. It honestly disappoints me that some people would simply respond to such concerns with comments like "Use/open your eyes" or "get gud" as if changing how healthy my eyes are was as simple as working out more often. All I can say about this sudden emphasis on having perfectly healty eyesight is "But why when other competitive games don't make finding enemies a fitness check?"



I mean, if having good eyesight is a "skill" then I guess SFV being playable competitively by a blind player must be the most unskilled, casual game in existence.

And I think one of the most helpful things about spotting was that even if my vision sucks, my teammates can help me out by putting 3D spots on enemies for me.
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Oct 22nd 2018, 12:21pm)