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VincentNZ

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Monday, July 30th 2018, 10:35pm

@sid_tai

I agree, BF4 pretty much nailed it (no sarcasm) with the gunplay. Playing games that lack it feel ...uncompleted in the gunplay. Shallow is the word perhaps? It's like playing a shooter from ten years ago. Movement and positioning, teamplay applying suppression (in BF4) are rewarded more instead of mainly the quite boring put Y on X with the mouse within Z time.

I also noticed that, considered playstyle, taking into account the same basic principles from BF4 into PUBG, it doesnt work. Picking and getting into hard cover to take peakshots or deal suppression for your squadmate to move up: it doesnt work in PUBG. Its a twitchy headshot fest if you advance more in level in PUBG. It has little to do with the principles of gunfights.



I also think, that the perceived sniperproblem (by the playerbase) will be even bigger in BF5 because of this. If I want instant headshots and quickscoping without firefights, I'll play Counterstrike. I find it strange that DICE tried to move towards that. As if a siren of l33t-competitiveness from the far past is beckoning them.


Yep you are both right. I still think BF3 was the superior game, because the map design was so stellar that the better gunplay of BF4 did not matter. Gunplay wise, BF4 is taking the best mechanics and putting it together to create an enjoyable experience for most players. I do not know if that was intentional or not.

Actually the mechanics of PUBG are not that far away from BF, but with the inconsistencies of equipment through armour, damage and multipliers as well as the abundance of SRs it becomes the headshot simulator. 3D person view does the rest. Also the optimization and the "netcode" as well as the infrastructure leave much to be desired. Everything just feels laggy, slow and clumsy. I never had an issue with the netcode of any BF game, but the crowd that complained there must have a real issue with PUBG. :D Right now I am in the top 400 of the game by being carried and it is really ridiculous how people deal headshots and with no way to counter that.

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Wednesday, August 1st 2018, 7:17am

?(

PUBG is far from being a twitch shooter like COD even at "higher" levels of play, suppressing fire still has an invaluable application in that game, and while headshots do massive damage, bodyshots still DO matter.

Also, third person mode is garbage and I consider it an entirely separate game/containment mode for Asians and casual players. Don't play it obviously

VincentNZ

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Wednesday, August 1st 2018, 12:29pm

Sorry but I can not agree here at all. This game is all about getting the headshot in first since it deals x2,1 the damage off the upper body multiplier, which is basically the next in line damage wise. Furthermore, the game offers whopping 8 damage modifiers depending on the body part you hit. Ranging from 1/6 to 1/2 of the hadshot damage.

Add equipment modifiers, attachments healing abilities, engagement ranges, damage dropoff, an emphasis on recoil, spread, 3d person peeking and cover and you will naturally want to deal the most damage that you can with one hit. And people will do it on a regular basis. Makes you wonder why anyone ever felt the need to complain about SRs being too hard to shoot in BF4.

Matchmaking plays a huge role as well. Yeah in lower ELOs you might find people using every weapon, but in the end it all boils down to the SRs. Matchmaking is the bane of FPS gaming anyway and should be eradicated.

To spin the issue back round to BF5, this is what they do with the new gunplay system as well. They emphasise on recoil, which is a very specific skillset, but has no effect at all on SRs. Nor does this system limit the proficiency of some players in any way or bring another layer of skill to the table to offset a lack in the other (i.e. spotting system, tactical approach via minimap etc.).

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Wednesday, August 1st 2018, 8:17pm

Sorry but I can not agree here at all. This game is all about getting the headshot in first since it deals x2,1 the damage off the upper body multiplier, which is basically the next in line damage wise. Furthermore, the game offers whopping 8 damage modifiers depending on the body part you hit. Ranging from 1/6 to 1/2 of the hadshot damage.

At least it's not Siege... I might like to play that game if it weren't full auto OHSK @1000 RPM.

Matchmaking is the bane of FPS gaming anyway and should be eradicated.

I'd say it depends on the type of game. I think it works neither for truly competitive team games (MOBAs, CS:GO, Siege), nor for large-scale games of any kind (BF, mostly). I think it worked quite well in the small-scale casual-y world of CoD Black Ops 2. It often enough failed to create close matches, but the Idea of including players from a variety of skill levels from potato to god in both teams worked quite well. I enjoyed it much more than the later iterations that put greater emphasis on putting players of mostly similar performance in a game together. I don't think this is practical in a 32-64+ player environment, especially if we consider the existence of tanks and planes as force multipliers (not that killstreaks weren't problematic as well).
Zormau - Battlelog / Battlefield 4

Memorable quotes not taken yet:


Of course, this ignores the non-constant cross-sectional first moment of area across the chest as well as non-constant material properties of the boob; it would be difficult to perform a more detailed analysis (as in, I'd have to have a shape function AND I'd need to derive a function for elastic modulus as a function of lateral breast coordinate) but whatever. It's 2am and I'm lazy.


I always believed science should be very hands on experience.

You should also answer this question I had posed in that thread: Would you be willing to pay your surgeon more if he was going to use a chainsaw for the opening incision of surgery? Clearly using a chainsaw isn't truly suited for surgery but that doesn't really matter. If he's "skilled" enough to be able to use the wrong tools of the trade, he should be rewarded for that skill right?


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Thursday, August 2nd 2018, 4:20am

I don't see how there's much practical difference between a matchmaker, and the average statistical outcome of a manual server-browser style of joining. Both are going to give a wide variety of player types and skill levels into the same match. The only real difference I can think of is a proper match maker should be more efficient at it, whereas a server browser is far less predicable or balanced, and only looks that way in the broadest view over the long term.
Who Enjoys, Wins

Forger21

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Thursday, August 2nd 2018, 7:01am

@Ritobasu
@VincentNZ

1st and 3rd person perspective play out VERY differently in PUBG. It sounds like one of you primarily plays 3rd and the other 1st?

I'll take your word for what 3rd person perspective is like, but if you're winning more than 10-15 % of the rounds you play in 1st person the matchmaking, combined with the general cheating-prevention troubles the game has been having, means that 80% of the fights you take will involve aimbots on the other team, including the fights you win as well as the fights you lose. They've got that extensive replay system, so if you take the time to go back and look at what the other players did in previous fights as well as the fights with your team you can identify them pretty consistently, weird lag replay bugginess notwithstanding. Since the best way to fight cheaters who are using aimbots but don't have the reaction times of actual experienced fps players is to do very short peeks, SRs naturally encourage the sort of playstyle that is suited to playing against the average cheater. The same thing can be done with ARs/DMRs and a mix of head and bodyshots, however, with disciplined peeks, trading 1 hit kill potential for more consistent damage. There are some weird and subtle differences between playing optimally to beat other normal players and playing optimally to beat people using aimbots (who often don't know what they're doing in other aspects of play), but those other things aren't as closely related to the actual shooting mechanics. The differences between 1st and 3rd person are equally weird, but not particularly subtle.
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VincentNZ

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Thursday, August 2nd 2018, 10:51am

@Ritobasu
@VincentNZ

1st and 3rd person perspective play out VERY differently in PUBG. It sounds like one of you primarily plays 3rd and the other 1st?

I'll take your word for what 3rd person perspective is like, but if you're winning more than 10-15 % of the rounds you play in 1st person the matchmaking, combined with the general cheating-prevention troubles the game has been having, means that 80% of the fights you take will involve aimbots on the other team, including the fights you win as well as the fights you lose. They've got that extensive replay system, so if you take the time to go back and look at what the other players did in previous fights as well as the fights with your team you can identify them pretty consistently, weird lag replay bugginess notwithstanding. Since the best way to fight cheaters who are using aimbots but don't have the reaction times of actual experienced fps players is to do very short peeks, SRs naturally encourage the sort of playstyle that is suited to playing against the average cheater. The same thing can be done with ARs/DMRs and a mix of head and bodyshots, however, with disciplined peeks, trading 1 hit kill potential for more consistent damage. There are some weird and subtle differences between playing optimally to beat other normal players and playing optimally to beat people using aimbots (who often don't know what they're doing in other aspects of play), but those other things aren't as closely related to the actual shooting mechanics. The differences between 1st and 3rd person are equally weird, but not particularly subtle.


I play both equally, but since the new season is up we will only play FP. For me there is little difference between the modes in terms of gunplay, while tactical differences are obviously huge. Cheating is definitely an issue in this game due to the outlying mechanics, but I can not say that it increased siginificantly with moving up the ladder. Chances are good that cheaters will be banned over the course of going through the leaderboards. What you definitely can see change when moving up is the proficiency of enemy players, which brings me to the matchmaking:

@BleedingUranium
I do like to have some sort of evaluation of how good I do, and for others to see as well. Battlelog was great for that, because I could see my improvement over time and could look up others as well in an orderly manner. There is stuff to intepret. In PUBG these numbers (broken down into two) have a direct outcome on my game experience. I used to play Duo a lot with a mate and we are both pretty shit at the gunplay there, but we play the zone smartly so that we mostly end up in the top ten, or might even win quite a few rounds. That does not really change over the season. What does change is the people we are getting matched with. After a couple of days we reached top 1% and many fights are basically lost on sight. So we end up #1-5 with 0-1 kill each and as much enjoyment.
Right now we play in a Squad with 2-3 really good people that carried me to #290, with the same experience. I basically just run along with a winrating of 29% and get killed instantly because I peeked a millisecond too long. That is just not an enjoyable concept of a game. I do not want to be matched with people of my squad's skillgroup, I want to be matched with everybody, otherwise how am I going to get better? Matchmaking in PUBG is all about streamlining the game experience through using irrelevant numbers like a win or kill rating in a game with 100 people. It just does not work. If you play on peak hours there are more than enough people on to allow that algorithm to work.

With BF they seem to move into a similar direction, since they already basically eliminated the server browser in the previous installment. As for matchmaking itself I believe there always has been a system, right? And I know that other games do it as well. I see the appeal, for competitive games like R6, Overwatch and CS, but in games like PUBG and BF where you there a thousand random chances involved it just does not work through an abstract and absurd number. And of course once you drop below a critical number of players, matchamking makes no sense at all anymore.

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Friday, August 3rd 2018, 3:12am

@VincentNZ

You can push out numbers, but in the end HS aren't something you consciously aim for unless you're having peek duels or hitting a standing, oblivious target. And inconsistencies in damage thanks to hitting limbs is something barely noticed unless you're using a bolt-action and hitting arms/hands, and that part is about to be completely done away with in the new bullet penetration system introduced on test servers.

You can try to keep aiming for the head, but the guy fighting you back with a 4x AR/DMR is going to get any damage done on you in any way he can. If your head happens to be in the way or the biggest target presented to him, that's a nice bonus. It's naive to think any non-HS damage is pointless, because it's still inflicting damage on your HP and forcing you into cover to heal, chipping away your chest kevlar, and doing very slight aimpunch which absolutely matters in fights.

Quoted

Matchmaking plays a huge role as well. Yeah in lower ELOs you might find people using every weapon, but in the end it all boils down to the SRs.

In every ELO, you'll find people running both close quarters (SMGs, ARs) and long range weapons (Bolt-Actions, DMRs, ARs). What usually matters more than the type of weapon they pick for long range fights is usually the strength of their optics for long range battles, positioning, and individual skill in no particular order. PUBG is far more dynamic than being boiled down to Kar98k Headshot Only Wars

Quoted

For me there is little difference between the modes in terms of gunplay, while tactical differences are obviously huge.

Sorry, but I need to state this in the most frank way possible so everyone is crystal clear on my position about this, if they didn't get the hint from my earlier post:

TPP is a fucking meme mode.

It should in absolutely no way be even be factored into general discussion about PUBG as much as Hardcore mode BF players talking about the state of BF overall. You can claim all you want that the gunplay is identical, but the tactical aspect completely changes EVERYTHING about the game. That is precisely why I disparaged it earlier, because TPP is a toxic gameplay mechanic that throws out basic FPS fundamentals out the window. Turn on Twitch and look at the Western streamers, and tell me what mode is being overwhelmingly played the most? What perspective unofficial PUBG "esports" primarily run? And what other mode has to be hamfisted in by Bluehole at official esports tournaments?


@Forger21

You are seriously exaggerating the amount of cheating that goes on in PUBG, especially in Squad FPP where we encounter maybe one cheater every 2-3 weeks, from playing 3-4+ hours almost daily. In the last season #7, I have 41 games won out of a total of 159, a 25% winrate ratio while still maintaining a respectable K/D and Average Damage stat. We've fought lots of good players, but never saw a single suspicious person.

Forger21

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Friday, August 3rd 2018, 6:24am

You are seriously exaggerating the amount of cheating that goes on in PUBG, especially in Squad FPP where we encounter maybe one cheater every 2-3 weeks, from playing 3-4+ hours almost daily. In the last season #7, I have 41 games won out of a total of 159, a 25% winrate ratio while still maintaining a respectable K/D and Average Damage stat. We've fought lots of good players, but never saw a single suspicious person.

No, I'm not exaggerating one iota. Also, my estimate is purely players using aimbots, I have no idea how common more subtle cheats such as vision assists are. I also primarily play Squad FPP. If we're gonna do the stats thing, I'd guess your KD and damage are better than mine, but I just checked and I'm currently on 25.8% winrate for season 7 in squads.

1. Do you regularly look back at the replays of your games and watch other players perspectives, including fights that you weren't even involved in? I generally don't see that much suspicious behavior at the time or in kill cams. It's only by watching multiple fights taken by a player in the same game that it becomes apparent. A single kill is rarely going to give you enough information. There's also a bit of practice and experience involved in identifying the cheating in the replays. If you haven't analyzed a lot of replays you're going to miss more cheaters and falsely flag more legitimate players than if you had. If you haven't done this, I assure you, you have no idea how many cheaters you're encountering. You would be incapable of knowing. I would be just as incapable. I certainly wouldn't be able to tell if I had been just watching over your shoulder all season and seeing what you saw. I'd probably come up with the same numbers you listed above.

2. PUBG is outrageously popular with people who haven't often played first person shooters in the past. Your own statements about 3rd person perspective, well, that gamemode wouldn't be as popular as it is if there were only long time FPS players playing PUBG. The cheaters I'm describing and that you're also running into; I'm sure your killing 5 teams of hackers for every team of hackers that kills you. They are in general so inexperienced in shooters that even with an obvious aimbot many can't compete with legit players who have any kind of experience. You wouldn't in a million years suspect them of cheating unless you went back to the replay and watched a team you didn't find at all suspicious at the time take multiple engagements over the course of the round. PUBG actually does a great job at preventing certain kinds of obvious cheats. I've never encountered the kind of players I used to see once in a while in BF3 who would kill people across the map or spin around rapidly shooting people and I've never encountered the speed hacks or flying vehicles you see in videos of PUBG. There is just a large population of people who often (but not always by any means) don't really know how to play FPS's and who are using relatively subtle aimbots. It's pretty funny the way one type (that I haven't seen much recently, now that I think about it, maybe it's been blocked by the anticheat by now) switches back and forth periodically, and instantly, from perfect center of mass to perfect center of head. lol. That's my second favorite more obvious flag, after the guy who finishes an enemy in full auto, but leaves his finger on the button a little too long, so his aim snaps from the guy he just finished to a second enemy between one full auto shot and the next, and he gets a hit on someone he wasn't shooting at, but then he doesn't realize, even then, that the second enemy is there, and after getting a hit or two accidentally he looks off in another direction trying to find the guy lololol.

4. I'm not just basing my claims on lots of examining replay footage. You can see people's handles in those replays. And, so, you can look up on pubg.op.gg exactly what they've done in every game they've played for the last 7 seasons. Placement, KD, headshot percentage, the lot of it. Looking up the histories of suspicious players I would have expected to see a lot of accounts that had just been created recently, but interestingly, a fair number of the players we look up after watching them throw up red flags in the replays have a pretty good sample size of rounds played in the previous seasons. And what do we consistently see? Multiple seasons with decent sample sizes of round played, all with around, say 0.4 KD. Then, in the last dozen rounds or so, suddenly they're averaging 2KD, with a third of the rounds they play getting 3 times as many kills as the most kills they'd ever gotten before in a single round? Yeah, I don't think so lol.

3. Here's a tweet from Battleye from the beginning of the year:

Quoted

We have banned over 1,044,000 PUBG cheaters in January alone, unfortunately things continue to escalate.

To put that in perspective, at the the time when they had banned 1 million players over the course of a month they had only sold 26 million copies of the game in total, over its lifetime. Those are the ones they caught, conclusively enough to issue a ban. Add in the factor of matchmaking, and the way the battle royale gamemode is eventually going to put anyone who keeps surviving in contact with whichever other teams have killed off the rest of the server, and anyone winning as many rounds as you are is playing with a lot of cheaters. It was very interesting playing Sanhok during the time when they didn't have any matchmaking. I had no idea before doing that the extent to which having matchmaking affects how dangerous the other players are. I'd always assumed because of the short queue times it was less strict than in other games, but during the no matchmaking rounds our group easily won twice as frequently as with matchmaking on.

So that was a fair bit of off topic information, but no, unfortunately I'm not exaggerating. I wish I was. I'm still amazed at how prevalent it is, I have a difficult time wrapping my head around the motivation for so many people to automate their game in this way. Might as well watch a video of someone else playing instead of playing yourself at that point.

Anyway, the evidence is all there, if you really want to depress yourself. It's accessible after the fact, in the replays and the stats they record, but it takes a little digging to extract it, you wouldn't know just by playing a lot.
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Monday, August 6th 2018, 4:02pm

@Ritobasu

I would not say body shots don't matter much, because they do matter. But from watching how high level players play I believe the meta is peek, shoot once, go back quickly peek another side, rinse and repeat. Same for both ARs and SRs. This to me bears more resemblance with twitch shooters than any other category. The only difference is that the movement is sluggish by design.

@VincentNZ

It is about headshots IF the game actually registers a headshot. I have, in multiple occasions, confirmed from my instant replay recordings that I aimed right at the head of the enemy, hit twice and wondered why he didn't die. And I realized from the deathcam that I hit his hand twice. And this behavior persists even during the past weekend, when the hand penetration patch is supposedly live. I have uninstalled it multiple times because of this just to install it again because my mates want us to play together as a squad. On a personal level, I am done with that game.