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Riesig

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151

Friday, June 15th 2018, 5:52pm

The big tank ammo pool is pretty much next to infinite by how he uses it against infantry and other tanks alike.




Well he's playing against randos so there's not much of a challenge but it didn't feel like he was pressed to conserve and use ammo on the right type of enemy. More like a point and click death machine.


The BF4 system works well for me since a limited ammo pool forces the player to use the limited ammo conservatively and prevents a lot of infantry derp kills, giving them the illusion of having a fighting chance and lessening the frustration of the one getting killed.


Given that ammo doesn't regenerate but there needs to be an artificial way to limit the available ammo, perhaps a ready rack mechanic could put a temporary breather from death machines totally steamrolling the opposition with non stop fire?
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152

Friday, June 15th 2018, 7:30pm

He explains a little how the gunplay works, spread is still a thing as is SIPS (save for SLRs and BARs), and mentions some new things about it.

I also read somewhere that the build at EA play had a dumbed down gunplay with reduced recoil, but I'm not sure if it is true.
I sure hope that is the case. I seen where he mentioned we had First shot spread increase still. I'd like to see more obvious spread than what we seen at E3. I just worry we will see a return to tapfire and microbursting.

VincentNZ

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153

Friday, June 15th 2018, 7:47pm

I never saw the issue with ther ammo pool on land vehicles. It works well as long as infantry gets enough ammo themselves. When you meet an enemy it is also always on the same terms ammo wise. With a limited pool, and depending how severely you are limited this is not always the case.
It depends on the impact the vehicles have on the round. In BF4 where you had seven rockets and could peak and fire you could often make a tank retreat on your own with medium risk. In BF1 with less tank slots and tanks that were basically designed as artillery and the clumsy rocket guns they were much more a personal force multiplier. But limited ammo would have crippled the tank here much more. And of course there is the question of how well an attacking tank will fare against a defensive tank on a flag. Can the defender resupply automatically there?

What do we know of vehicle spawns in BFV? Will there be more but unchangeable vehicle spawns, or can the players still choose whatever they want? How many rockets do engis get? Is it enough to take down a tank by themselves?

I find a limited ammo pool for air assets much better though, because experience has shown that sometimes you really need a breather against air assets.

But again the important factor is that the balance between infantry/ground and air works. An ammo pool really adds mostly inconsistency instead of balance.

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154

Friday, June 15th 2018, 9:10pm

The big tank ammo pool is pretty much next to infinite by how he uses it against infantry and other tanks alike.




Well he's playing against randos so there's not much of a challenge but it didn't feel like he was pressed to conserve and use ammo on the right type of enemy. More like a point and click death machine.


The BF4 system works well for me since a limited ammo pool forces the player to use the limited ammo conservatively and prevents a lot of infantry derp kills, giving them the illusion of having a fighting chance and lessening the frustration of the one getting killed.


Given that ammo doesn't regenerate but there needs to be an artificial way to limit the available ammo, perhaps a ready rack mechanic could put a temporary breather from death machines totally steamrolling the opposition with non stop fire?


In a game that is about killing the enemy to take his territory, but that otherwise plays very loosely with things like ammo count and the like, balancing something out by using temporary reprieves when it runs out of ammo and has to go away is a pretty lame idea. If a tank is causing you problems, you kill it.

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155

Friday, June 15th 2018, 9:28pm

I never saw the issue with ther ammo pool on land vehicles. It works well as long as infantry gets enough ammo themselves. When you meet an enemy it is also always on the same terms ammo wise. With a limited pool, and depending how severely you are limited this is not always the case.
It depends on the impact the vehicles have on the round. In BF4 where you had seven rockets and could peak and fire you could often make a tank retreat on your own with medium risk. In BF1 with less tank slots and tanks that were basically designed as artillery and the clumsy rocket guns they were much more a personal force multiplier. But limited ammo would have crippled the tank here much more. And of course there is the question of how well an attacking tank will fare against a defensive tank on a flag. Can the defender resupply automatically there?

What do we know of vehicle spawns in BFV? Will there be more but unchangeable vehicle spawns, or can the players still choose whatever they want? How many rockets do engis get? Is it enough to take down a tank by themselves?

I find a limited ammo pool for air assets much better though, because experience has shown that sometimes you really need a breather against air assets.

But again the important factor is that the balance between infantry/ground and air works. An ammo pool really adds mostly inconsistency instead of balance.


Coming from someone who played BF2, BFV and BF2142, vehicle ammo was a stupid problem. It was stupid in the same way infantry ammo can be stupid. For most cases ammo was practically infinite because you died well before you used it all up. But then if/when you actually ran out it was an absolute pain in the ass to get more ammo since you had to beg for a support ammo crate (to reload your tank), or get a commander supply drop.

It was a frustrating experience that often meant going back to the respawn screen instead of wasting time with that sort of fuckery. IMO that's just bad design because there are far more interesting ways to limit gameplay elements and encourage teamwork. Besides, vehicles have always had aspects of unlimited ammo so it's always been a rather arbitrary thing and limited ammo pools just have never worked all that well for vehicles IMO. As you say the result is inconsistency instead of balance. BFV is merely going back to the old way of doing things, with the added twist that instead of commander drops supply guys can build ammo stations. And flags now have ammo stations as well so it's less of a pain in the ass. But it's still a boring time sink.

Something else to keep in mind: the supposed power of tanks in BF1 is really just a matter of perception, not reality. Top tier tankers were doing easily just as well in BF3/BF4 as they were in BF1. They were doing even better in 2142. Launchers in BF2/2142/BF3/BF4 just allowed you to easily derp-kill bad tanks with a super easy to use launcher, and that just made people FEEL good. But that is immaterial against good tankers. You can also derp tanks in BF1 really easily but it means getting close, which makes it harder to pull off on average. The perception of EZ/balanced/OP is purely a function of killing the bad tanks, not dealing with average or good players.

Again, this all boils down to an issue of interesting/fun ways of balancing versus boring ones for the player on the receiving end. Resupplying is pretty fucking boring and so it has to be handled with care. The strengths/weaknesses of vehicles will also always dictate how good people use them. Tanks have always been vulnerable to close range ambush in BF games and thus they tend to hand back so they can do the most damage, unless surrounded by infantry. They will need a dramatic paradigm shift to suddenly make good vehicle players play differently. The best design choices are thus actually map ones, forcing tanks to get into CQB ambushes and the like. BF1s vehicle problems were mostly map problems.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "tankmayvin" (Jun 15th 2018, 9:36pm)


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156

Friday, June 15th 2018, 9:33pm

It's a good thing interesting and boring are highly subjective descriptors then.
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157

Friday, June 15th 2018, 9:36pm

It's a good thing interesting and boring are highly subjective descriptors then.


Sitting around holding a button and waiting for a timer to finish is self-evidently "boring". Unless the enemy is shooting at you. Then it is tedious and butthole puckering.

I think the "I just need a fucking mine" song from PR is the best way to sum up the issue.

NoctyrneSAGA

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158

Friday, June 15th 2018, 10:01pm

It's a good thing interesting and boring are highly subjective descriptors then.


Sitting around holding a button and waiting for a timer to finish is self-evidently "boring". Unless the enemy is shooting at you. Then it is tedious and butthole puckering.

I think the "I just need a fucking mine" song from PR is the best way to sum up the issue.


At EA Play, I was pretty much ready to break into song as well.

I've also heard that aircraft resupply is similar but instead of press and hold it's "Press a button while flying through an actual hoop" and that is just tedious.

Pretty much what VincentNZ said for one-press resupply for infantry. And if it's anything like infantry resupply, it'll just be like a 10 second pit stop at most. If it's closer to tank resupply, now it feels like I'm doing stupid tricks just to be able to play the actual game again.

So far the gameplay of BFV seems to be filled with questionable chores and click taxes. Like using infantry deployed crates. I was always using the flag crate myself so I can't confirm but I heard that the new process to get your stuff from crates is: you press the key the crate is bound to so you equip it, then you throw it out, then you look at it, then you press E however many times it takes to get full health/ammo. Somehow what was previously a very simple and fast way to replenish resources (one click and everyone in a radius gets replenish) has been turned into a 4+ click affair where the blueberries or squadmates you try to help have to ALSO be aware that you deployed an item to help them. Then they go and hammer E at the crate however many times they need to. Now I wonder if, in order to receive healing/ammo from a pouch, players have to press E to "catch" the pouch and also be looking at it.



I think it's also worth mentioning that in BF3/4 your tank had active defensive measures you could use to mitigate damage as well.

BF1 doesn't really have anything interesting like that. Sure you have the smoke screen but it doesn't do what the BF4 version did in terms of damage mitigation.

As for the perception of tank power, are you saying that bad tankers finally figured out suiciding their tanks in without infantry support is a bad idea?

The paradigm shift to force tankers to move in is gutting any semblance of viable ranged weaponry on the tank.
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Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Jun 15th 2018, 10:14pm)


VincentNZ

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159

Friday, June 15th 2018, 10:28pm

True you guys, but in BF3 anyone could hop in a tank, and feel immediately empowered. Adding a gunner and/or repairman and you had a force multiplier. In BF1 this is mostly a one-man show, and most effectively used as a personal force multiplier for good players. You can not drive into the flag, which was totally feasible before. You do not need a crew to be fully effective, either. That does limit your use though as well.

I hope they will revert to the more aggressive team-oriented ground vehicle that is easy to use for everyone instead of the 1% killing machine.

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160

Friday, June 15th 2018, 10:31pm

It's a good thing interesting and boring are highly subjective descriptors then.


Sitting around holding a button and waiting for a timer to finish is self-evidently "boring". Unless the enemy is shooting at you. Then it is tedious and butthole puckering.

I think the "I just need a fucking mine" song from PR is the best way to sum up the issue.


At EA Play, I was pretty much ready to break into song as well.

I've also heard that aircraft resupply is similar but instead of press and hold it's "Press a button while flying through an actual hoop" and that is just tedious.

Pretty much what VincentNZ said for one-press resupply for infantry. And if it's anything like infantry resupply, it'll just be like a 10 second pit stop at most. If it's closer to tank resupply, now it feels like I'm doing stupid tricks just to be able to play the actual game again.

So far the gameplay of BFV seems to be filled with questionable chores and click taxes. Like using infantry deployed crates. I was always using the flag crate myself so I can't confirm but I heard that the new process to get your stuff from crates is: you press the key the crate is bound to so you equip it, then you throw it out, then you look at it, then you press E however many times it takes to get full health/ammo. Somehow what was previously a very simple and fast way to replenish resources (one click and everyone in a radius gets replenish) has been turned into a 4+ click affair where the blueberries or squadmates you try to help have to ALSO be aware that you deployed an item to help them. Then they go and hammer E at the crate however many times they need to. Now I wonder if, in order to receive healing/ammo from a pouch, players have to press E to "catch" the pouch and also be looking at it.



I think it's also worth mentioning that in BF3/4 your tank had active defensive measures you could use to mitigate damage as well.

BF1 doesn't really have anything interesting like that. Sure you have the smoke screen but it doesn't do what the BF4 version did in terms of damage mitigation.

As for the perception of tank power, are you saying that bad tankers finally figured out suiciding their tanks in without infantry support is a bad idea?

The paradigm shift to force tankers to move in is gutting any semblance of viable ranged weaponry on the tank.



The BF1 smoke screen was fabulous though because it did exactly what it advertised on the box: made you utterly impossible to see so that you could withdraw. Damage mitigation is also not getting hit, and it was better at that than pretty much any other CM from any other BF. IMO its on par with APS. I thought the BF4 "magical min damage" thing was really, really gamey, especially considering it really didn't say what it did on the box in the UI.

Either way, that's just an aside to the general shittery we find for BFV vehicles and click-tasking in general.

With FO76 and PS supposedly releasing about a month after BFV, you know what I'm going to be playing anyway. PS will totally satisfy my tanking fun.