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Sunday, May 27th 2018, 11:15am

BFV's character design, diversity, and selection looks to be almost exactly in line with Rainbow Six: Siege, which to me is the perfect middle ground of feeling military/authentic combined with character variety and player choice.


Well... That's just your opinion. Going by the reception of the trailer, it's a largely unpopular one at that.

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Sunday, May 27th 2018, 6:47pm

BFV's design so far seems really disappointing in my opinion.

Like the Press A Key For Ammo/Health thing. I remember the auras in BF1 were supposed to be something that removed the need to press the button to deploy a crate when out of combat. Seems like DICE took Westie and JackFrags literally and added a bunch of unnecessary clicks? Now we have to deploy AND press a second button to grab shit?

The rumor of no RBD is also pretty worrying. Does this mean we'll see huge damage drop-off? I think seeing 100+ BTKs to be more inauthentic and skill-less than spread was. Or maybe we'll see stupid high amounts of recoil that lead to stupid amounts of camera shaking.

Lack of full health regen also means inconsistent BTKs. Sure you can argue that people push without healing right now but that's just them being bad. Any player that doesn't have a deathwish will be trying to engage at full health. This just removes any reward for playing conservatively and waiting for full health.
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Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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VincentNZ

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43

Sunday, May 27th 2018, 7:43pm

So if I wanted to immerse myself, I am dependent on other people.


Welcome to multiplayer games.

BFV's character design, diversity, and selection looks to be almost exactly in line with Rainbow Six: Siege, which to me is the perfect middle ground of feeling military/authentic combined with character variety and player choice.


Yep, exactly and since multiplayer mostly means playing with dicks, aka normal persons, stuff needs to be regulated to not get out of hand. Why would anyone not string a katana on his back or wear the fancy red shorts or arm prosthetic if he bought it with real money or spend hours in getting them?

Yeah R6 is set in a more or less contemporary era, where everyone is basically allowed to work in a military or police combat role. You still choose predefined operators though, right? And I am pretty sure that no GSG9 operator is black and that they still use their standard uniform.

Within the context of the second world war, this does not really make sense now, does it? Soldiers were equipped with their standard outfits and identified as male. Maybe there were a few fashion afficionados that sewed a patch on their uniform or maybe stuck a flower on their uniform. But that is all there really is to it.

I would also agree with Noctyrne on the current gameplay features, to the point of what we know at the moment, are very lackluster. If you do not heal further than 75% on your own, the medic will be the class to play, because it will likely mean you will take a bullet more. When looking at the archetype screen from JackFrags there seem to be different armour types as well. Add a couple more of damage modifiers from weapons and hitzones and you will definitely have no idea why you just did or did not kill that guy.
Concerning the shooting mechanic itself, with it mostly recoil based you could really make the recoil heavy similar to Arma, that way you could have a flatter damage range across all weapons. But what to do with weapons where recoil traditionally is of little to no concern, like SMGs, shotguns, and sniper rifles?
With a pure recoil system I have a lot of problems, because it just leads to frustration. In BF we traditionally used spread, recoil and damage to balance weapons which had the additional benefit that you could make different weapon classes feel differently and that every weapon shared the same stat foundation. I would also assume that it leads to a better balance between players because super duper aim is not immediately the win-button. Furthermore this system is harder to exploit. If you want to use a macro, I suppose the effect is better with no spread attached. Also using a no recoil/no spread/more damage hack is less effective because there are other things not affected, and the more cheats you use the easier you are detected.

As for actively needing to get health and ammo, I think it is stupid either way. If it is an interruptible animation then developing this is unnecessary. If you ammo-up with one click, than it is obsolete, if you take one magazine with one click then it is tedious. That is why we got auras in the first place. Yeah it is "immersive", in the same way a quicktime-event where you have to rummage through the crate to get your stuff would be.
It is also not a very intuitive team-action, since you then need two people to actively press a button to perform a simple teamaction. It also delays the act of getting ammo, which could be critical in certain situations. I only wonder if they will still stupidly seperate the bag from the pouch, so that one needs an animation while the other does not and you will just pick it up.

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Sunday, May 27th 2018, 8:10pm

In the end, it just adds a lot of unnecessary clicking. To me this is a lot like the QTE rage back in the mid 2000s.

If the goal is to increase the immersion, then I think they've got it backwards. Making the interface clunky with a lot of unnecessary clicks like this only REMINDS players that they're playing a game.

The less players worry about inputs, the more they can be absorbed into the game. That is how immersion should be done.
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Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

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Sunday, May 27th 2018, 8:36pm

And this right here is why this group doesn't do game design. Trying to break everything down to pure numbers and gamey traits is exactly what got us BF1's lacklustre gameplay (no matter how "perfectly designed").

If you seriously can't think of a taking ammo animation as anything but a "click tax" and "hindering your ability to play"... the only thing that can help you is a perspective shift. This attitude is just so far away from the game's (and most games') philosophy and values that it's basically a block to any reasonable discussion about game design. It's equally as unproductive as thinking that every game should be a simulator.


And no, BF1 has shown very clearly that passive traits do not make a game feel more immersive, it's very much the opposite. "Clicks" and other direct forms of interaction are what tie a player to the actions they're performing, it emphasizes that they're the ones doing those things, not the game. Physical immersion is about being visceral and directly engaging the world.
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NoctyrneSAGA

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Sunday, May 27th 2018, 8:51pm

"Clicks" and other direct forms of interaction are what tie a player to the actions they're performing, it emphasizes that they're the ones doing those things, not the game. Physical immersion is about being visceral and directly engaging the world.


I then repeatedly hammered Resident Evil 5, though I feel it necessary to say that I really like that game. My letter grade is A and my recommendation is "buy it," but still it suffers from painfully many clicks. A reload "trick" (which you absolutely must do to be competitive in the competitive multiplayer mode or the single player mercenaries mode) turns reloading into a 5-click affair. Yes, 5-clicks to reload because an expert can do that way faster than the usual method that forces you into a reload animation. You must pay an "8-click tax" to setup this 5-click reload in the first place, and it's worth it to do so. At the start of every round (3 to 4 minutes) you pay that 8-click tax again. Also, when playing the 1p mercenaries mode, you often have to start each round with an even longer tax of 16 clicks to get rid of certain weapons so that you only get ammo for the weapons you still have in-hand. Finally, even using the 9-space menu at all for switching weapons is atrocious. I compared it to Shadowrun's well-designed radial menu that accomplishes the task of weapon switching cleanly, quickly, and elegantly. (Dear bad interface apologists: you will claim that the inventory menu is intentionally clunky because it builds tension. How about a good interface instead of a bad one and building tension through gameplay tuning, rather than by making the player fight the menu? Specifically, designing weapons with long reload times that you can't use the 5-click tax to bypass would increase tension. No bad interface needed.)


Once the novelty value wears off, I think people will realize how silly it is for the game to ask for confirmation on everything they want to do.

It's like if automatic doors vanished because "people should have to confirm they want to walk through."

Except they already did. By virtue of walking up to the automatic door.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

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47

Sunday, May 27th 2018, 8:58pm

...intent has nothing to do with physical immersion, clearly you're still not understanding the concept. You press a button to open a door (though I should not charging straight through them is returning) because that act is there to be you physicallly interacting with the world. Reading your mind and doing things automatically is the opposite of physical immersion.

Is it actually such a stange concept to you that many, many people actually prefer gameplay like this? The new features being added and changed for BFV are things the BF community has been asking for for a long, long time. Like, since BF3 kind of long.

This is a discussion of personal preference that you're trying to make sound objective.
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48

Sunday, May 27th 2018, 10:31pm

Erm, we haven't had mainstream WWII games since the early 2000s, with the exception of (the excellent) CoD: World At War, and CoD: WWII if you really want to count it. Games 15 years ago do not qualify for something "being done to death". The last time I played WWII in a video game was the opening mission of Bad Company 2's campaign. Before that, WaW. And... that's it.

If you don't like the setting, don't play it, that's totally fine; I skipped BC2: Vietnam and Hardline because the settings and styles didn't appeal to me whatsoever. But the assertion that WWII has been done to death is absolutely absurd in 2018.


I wont say you are incorrect... but since the BF1 reveal, I (and maybe some other players as well) thought DICE might try out more less widely known conflicts as a setting. WW2 is in correct historical order but still it definetely doesnt have the "new and never done" seal on it. ;)

Besides I am sick of WW2 in any type of media. Documentaries, Movies, Books, anywhere... There probably isnt a single thing of WW2 which hasnt been covered.

To make it diplomatic... WW2 definitely deserves a DICE treatment. Even if the historical setting is stretched and bended, it wont be as awful as COD did it.

But I am really interested if they make it a fun game again... I barely care about the details of the changes if the entire product is fun again - In conclusion that's the only important thing to me!!!
still playin' Motorstorm

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Monday, May 28th 2018, 6:15am

Concerning the shooting mechanic itself, with it mostly recoil based you could really make the recoil heavy similar to Arma, that way you could have a flatter damage range across all weapons. But what to do with weapons where recoil traditionally is of little to no concern, like SMGs, shotguns, and sniper rifles?
With a pure recoil system I have a lot of problems, because it just leads to frustration. In BF we traditionally used spread, recoil and damage to balance weapons which had the additional benefit that you could make different weapon classes feel differently and that every weapon shared the same stat foundation. I would also assume that it leads to a better balance between players because super duper aim is not immediately the win-button. Furthermore this system is harder to exploit. If you want to use a macro, I suppose the effect is better with no spread attached. Also using a no recoil/no spread/more damage hack is less effective because there are other things not affected, and the more cheats you use the easier you are detected.
I believe there is a way to let the role of spread effect merge into the recoil part, considering both of them are featuring a random bullet deviation. For example, a general fixed recoil pattern acts like so-called predictable recoil part. Then a small random recoil, basically horizontal, is applied to implement the roll of spread mechanics (you can even add a first shot recoil multiplier to approach bf1 gunplay), this small recoil may fix to gun (aim point) shaking instead of camera shaking so it won't bother player too much and then player can actually see where that bullet deviation comes from and hopefully stop whining about it.

VincentNZ

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Monday, May 28th 2018, 8:50am

Concerning the shooting mechanic itself, with it mostly recoil based you could really make the recoil heavy similar to Arma, that way you could have a flatter damage range across all weapons. But what to do with weapons where recoil traditionally is of little to no concern, like SMGs, shotguns, and sniper rifles?
With a pure recoil system I have a lot of problems, because it just leads to frustration. In BF we traditionally used spread, recoil and damage to balance weapons which had the additional benefit that you could make different weapon classes feel differently and that every weapon shared the same stat foundation. I would also assume that it leads to a better balance between players because super duper aim is not immediately the win-button. Furthermore this system is harder to exploit. If you want to use a macro, I suppose the effect is better with no spread attached. Also using a no recoil/no spread/more damage hack is less effective because there are other things not affected, and the more cheats you use the easier you are detected.
I believe there is a way to let the role of spread effect merge into the recoil part, considering both of them are featuring a random bullet deviation. For example, a general fixed recoil pattern acts like so-called predictable recoil part. Then a small random recoil, basically horizontal, is applied to implement the roll of spread mechanics (you can even add a first shot recoil multiplier to approach bf1 gunplay), this small recoil may fix to gun (aim point) shaking instead of camera shaking so it won't bother player too much and then player can actually see where that bullet deviation comes from and hopefully stop whining about it.


Yeah they said somewhere they wanted to make each weapon feel individual. In his example he described that recoil would rise more after a certain amount of bullets, so that the player "knows" this is a burst weapon. That does not sound too bad, since recoil would then play the same role as spread in previous games. There are a lot of issues with that though. Tendencially then every weapon is a burst weapon, it just matters how long that burst can be kept up. This could lead to overemphasis on aiming skills, as the CS:GO like players would have it easier to kill others, same with macro and cheatusers.
And there will be a lot off individual balance changes needed over the course of the game, since players will gravitate to the weapon with the best recoil/damage ratio. If you had a problem with the slight stat advantage of the M16 in BF3, this might be worse. Also what about stances and player movement? Will that affect recoil in any way? If yes, this would lead to inconsistent results, if not then everybody will gravitate to a run&gun playstyle. The different roles of the weapons are also harder to balance this way, if you only have recoil and damage to balance around, what to do with SMGs, that should have less accuracy and less recoil? DMRs will naturallyhave little issue with a dynamic recoil system, too.