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  • "NefariousPuppy" started this thread

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Tuesday, February 24th 2015, 5:38am

AS VAL Suppressor

Does the AS VAL's suppressor affect hipfire?

According to its stat page, the VAL's stationary hipfire is 1.0. Is it actually 1.2, like most suppressed PDWs?

NoctyrneSAGA

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Tuesday, February 24th 2015, 6:01am

Does the AS VAL's suppressor affect hipfire?

According to its stat page, the VAL's stationary hipfire is 1.0. Is it actually 1.2, like most suppressed PDWs?


Yes

Stat pages are raw value of the weapon's themselves, mostly without attachment considerations even if they're built in. Exception is the bullpup modifier which is being calculated for some weapons.
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Tuesday, February 24th 2015, 8:47am

Does this mean the MP7 has a lower FSM than listed?
H&K weapons FTW! HK416, MP5, MG4, USP.45, G36(C/K), L85A2, MP7! All H&K FTW !Now you may be thinking to your self, "isn't the L85A2 by manufactured by BAE systems?" well it's not. Any weapon in the SA80 family that is LxxA2 means it has gotten H&K upgrades, any weapon that is LxxA1 is first issue. "'The more you know!' 'And knowing is half the Battle!'" My XBOX One stats Below. Quite good at everything except sniping. I F**KIN HATE SNIPING. I am a sh*t sniper. Also, I give you Health and Ammo like the F*CKIN game depends on it because it probably does to an extent.

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Tuesday, February 24th 2015, 8:53am

Does this mean the MP7 has a lower FSM than listed?


@Jaren000

No.

MP7's Folding Grip is actually an Ergo Grip.

They call it a Folding Grip because that's what it looks like on the gun model.

This applies for all built-in grips. They're all Ergos.
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Tuesday, February 24th 2015, 11:11am

So that means the ergo grip modifiers apply to the weapon as well without being represented in stats?
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


NoctyrneSAGA

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Tuesday, February 24th 2015, 11:55am

So that means the ergo grip modifiers apply to the weapon as well without being represented in stats?


@Miffyli

Are built-in attachments integrated into the charts yet?
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Tuesday, February 24th 2015, 6:57pm

So that means the ergo grip modifiers apply to the weapon as well without being represented in stats?

Are built-in attachments integrated into the charts yet?

What do you mean exactly? Bullpup mod is calculated for charts (you can see raw values by hovering over recoils etc) but I removed the integrated ergo grip modifiers so people could have the raw values.
So basically you need to apply ergo grip to weapons which use it (only that grip available) to get correct values.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

Zer0Cod3x

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Wednesday, February 25th 2015, 8:04am

So that means the ergo grip modifiers apply to the weapon as well without being represented in stats?

Are built-in attachments integrated into the charts yet?

What do you mean exactly? Bullpup mod is calculated for charts (you can see raw values by hovering over recoils etc) but I removed the integrated ergo grip modifiers so people could have the raw values.
So basically you need to apply ergo grip to weapons which use it (only that grip available) to get correct values.

Thanks. But what's the point of giving people the raw values? Half the people looking at the stats are people redirected from YouTubers like LevelCap who wouldn't know about integrated ergo grips.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


NoctyrneSAGA

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Wednesday, February 25th 2015, 8:07am

So that means the ergo grip modifiers apply to the weapon as well without being represented in stats?

Are built-in attachments integrated into the charts yet?

What do you mean exactly? Bullpup mod is calculated for charts (you can see raw values by hovering over recoils etc) but I removed the integrated ergo grip modifiers so people could have the raw values.
So basically you need to apply ergo grip to weapons which use it (only that grip available) to get correct values.

Thanks. But what's the point of giving people the raw values? Half the people looking at the stats are people redirected from YouTubers like LevelCap who wouldn't know about integrated ergo grips.


Exactly, which is why there's been discussion on whether the charts should utilize "real" values.

There's a reason why so many people think LMGs have 2.0 moving minspread and ARs have 1.0 moving minspread even though they're not the actual values.



Providing raw values was so that people could derive it themselves but that might be wishful thinking.
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Passive Spotting is the future!

"Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours.

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Wednesday, February 25th 2015, 8:36am

So that means the ergo grip modifiers apply to the weapon as well without being represented in stats?

Are built-in attachments integrated into the charts yet?

What do you mean exactly? Bullpup mod is calculated for charts (you can see raw values by hovering over recoils etc) but I removed the integrated ergo grip modifiers so people could have the raw values.
So basically you need to apply ergo grip to weapons which use it (only that grip available) to get correct values.

Thanks. But what's the point of giving people the raw values? Half the people looking at the stats are people redirected from YouTubers like LevelCap who wouldn't know about integrated ergo grips.


Exactly, which is why there's been discussion on whether the charts should utilize "real" values.

There's a reason why so many people think LMGs have 2.0 moving minspread and ARs have 1.0 moving minspread even though they're not the actual values.



Providing raw values was so that people could derive it themselves but that might be wishful thinking.


Indeed.

But from raw values some (a few) can derive the correct values. From pre-computed values (say strafing side, no attachments), no-one can derive attachment or other movement effects.

Maybe there could be a set of drop-enums that the user could manipulate to define the conditions (direction + 2 attachments) for moving min spread computation? And then the chart would show the correct value where it now shows Moving Min Spread.

WoopsyYaya's moving min spread values list is really useful, but showing all those values in Symthic UI is too much IMO.
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