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NoctyrneSAGA

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51

Thursday, October 16th 2014, 7:17pm

this ammo regen rate would probably have to be extremely slow, since there wouldn't be really any point to the Support class outside of sustainable C-whoring, mortar whoring or rooftop clearing.


It would be low. No one said that it had to be so fast Support was made useless.

We have health regen now but is Assault's medkit useless? Hell no. It's still used because your own passive health regen is slow and prone to being stopped.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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52

Thursday, October 16th 2014, 7:46pm

Automatic regeneration enables self-sufficiency/ reliance.

Self-reliance dictates you need not anyone else to provide for you; operating on your own.

Operating on your own constitutes as lone-wolfing.

Lone-wolfing implies no collaboration with another, therefore no teamwork.

In conclusion:

Auto-regen = abolishing teamwork

Yes, I have. In a very succinct manner.

I know just as well as you that forcing teamwork will prove unfruitful. In order to coerce someone to engage in an act you want accomplished, they have to want to do it; on their own will. They need motivation. How is that best achieved? Through reward. What do players value in a game above all else? Experience/ XP. Inflate the Experience gained from resupplying and suddenly tossing down an ammo box nets you more points than kills or captures.

I still don't see why Hardline's ammo snatch system can't be introduced in the Teamplay Initiative. Just look at all the new additions from the Core Gameplay Initiative; I'm sure they have the ability to transfer that information to BF4.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


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53

Thursday, October 16th 2014, 7:50pm

How fast would they regen ammo?
At a reasonable rate.
Thanks for your reply, it answered most of my questions (quite literally). I'm on board with the idea, but I'm still not sure how ammo bags would be kept relevant. Med bags are still relevant with regenerating health due to how fast the health pool can be depleted and how detrimental it can be to go into an engagement with lower than max health, but ammo is depleted at a far slower pace and being at half maximum capacity (2 spare mags in most cases) is not something that will hold you back that much.

In most cases it will takes minutes (if not tens of minutes) to blow through your ammo reserve and the times where "really fucking fast" resupplies would be an actual advantage over "reasonably fast" resupplies seem like they would be quite far apart. The only times I can come up with from the top of my head is when an engineer is defending a flag against multiple vehicles or when defending a flag against an onslaught of oncoming enemies in general.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

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54

Thursday, October 16th 2014, 8:03pm

A lot of other games these days have the equivalent of regenerating ammo. As Darktan said, ammo is the resource representative of your ability to damage the enemy.

In RTSs, this is resources/manpower.

In many RPGs, this is Mana or MP.

In many of these games, these resources regenerate. FPSs insofar are the only ones that do not feature regenerating resources. Now you may say that this should be the way it works, but regenerating health wasn't in shooters for a very long time while it was in other games (RPGs). But now, regenerative health has made their way into FPSs as well.

You might call it diluting the genre, but letting ammo regenerate is simply bringing FPSs in line with other video game design decisions.
It's a fallacy to assume that just because other genres have popularized regenerating ammo, so must the FPS. By the same token, one could argue that the massive popularity of 'scarcity games' such as DayZ, Rust, Wasteland etc. means that we should move towards crafting bullets and medkits. There's a broad spectrum of game design, and it is most definately not all moving in the same direction.

Secondly, there's a reason why it is the RTS and RPG genres which feature infinite ammo. Their roots are in single player games without much emphasis on teamplay. Battlefield, with its clearly demarcated roles, is different. The analogy someone made up a few pages back, where it was argued that support players not giving out ammo was the equivalent of denying someone the ability to play the game is a ludicrous strawman. That's the equivalent of stating that since assault players cannot engage vehicles, a single piece of armor is denying them the ability to play and win the game. Therefore, the bullets of assault rifles should be able to damage vehicles.

Regenerating ammo would only reinforce the trend established with regenerating health where map control, teamwork and the importance of supply lines matter less and less. Now an isolated engineer behind enemy lines is able to wreak havoc throughout the whole match even with no one to help him. He doesn't need a medic, and he doesn't need a support player since everything regenerates. The concept of the front line and the necessity of covering each other's weak spots becomes meaningless. It makes tactical decisions matter less, as every encounter with the enemy takes place on even ground with full health and full ammo capacity.

Finally, regenerating ammo is the ultimate expression of defeatism in the face of lacking teamwork. Instead of promoting and facilitating teamwork, let's just give up, make ammo and health regenerating and call it a day. Fuck that noise.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Jais" (Oct 16th 2014, 8:09pm)


NoctyrneSAGA

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55

Thursday, October 16th 2014, 8:11pm

Automatic regeneration enables self-sufficiency/ reliance.

Self-reliance dictates you need not anyone else to provide for you; operating on your own.

Operating on your own constitutes as lone-wolfing.

Lone-wolfing implies no collaboration with another, therefore no teamwork.

In conclusion:

Auto-regen = abolishing teamwork

Yes, I have. In a very succinct manner.

I know just as well as you that forcing teamwork will prove unfruitful. In order to coerce someone to engage in an act you want accomplished, they have to want to do it; on their own will. They need motivation. How is that best achieved? Through reward. What do players value in a game above all else? Experience/ XP. Inflate the Experience gained from resupplying and suddenly tossing down an ammo box nets you more points than kills or captures.

I still don't see why Hardline's ammo snatch system can't be introduced in the Teamplay Initiative. Just look at all the new additions from the Core Gameplay Initiative; I'm sure they have the ability to transfer that information to BF4.


No you haven't.

Your reasoning is very flawed and you've essentially committed a slipper slope fallacy.

You've made the assertion that automatic regeneration enables self-sufficiency. You state self-sufficiency in turn leads you to act alone. You state acting alone is lone-wolfing. You state lone-wolfing is not teamwork. Ergo, automatic regneration is not teamwork.

You are wrong because your entire premise assumes you will be self-sufficient enough to no longer require teamwork to function.


Again, nowhere was it stated that you'd regenerate ammo fast enough that Support is trivialized. Your entire line of reasoning falls apart at step 2.

This is where what Darktan said comes back. Teamwork should be empowering.

Ammo Regeneration by itself would be slow and enough for you to get by. However, Support assisted ammo regeneration would be so fucking fast, you'd be stupid not to use it.

Teamwork turns out to be empowering.


Sure increase the points given for Resupplying, that'll surely entice Supports to throw Ammo Boxes out. Assuming they do throw them out. This is the issue at hand right now.

Your ability to inflict sustained damage at the enemy is entirely dependent on another player unless you are playing Support. This is a problem because you are putting control of one player into another's hands.

If you are out of bullets, you will have to either suicide or pick up another kit if you can get to one. And in a hypothetical worst case scenario where there are no Supports whatsoever, once one team exhausts their bullets, they are completely defenseless.


Let me reiterate the problem Darktan is trying to fix.

He is not trying to fix useless Supports not throwing out ammo.

He is trying to fix a problem caused by outdated design decisions and that is unless you have the right teammate at the right time you are completely fucked. And this teammate's actions are beyond your control.

This is what I was getting at with the buttons and the door.

You are at the complete mercy of the other teammate which is an environment conducive to griefing.


Let me try this in other words.

Without regenerating resources, you are REQUIRED to have classes that specialize in replenishing these resources or you are COMPLETELY FUCKED.

And because it is impossible for you to play both Assault and Support at the same time, you will have to pick one while another player picks the other.

And if they don't want to pick the other, you are COMPLETELY FUCKED.

Your fate depends on another player. That is fucking terrible.



@Jais

You missed the point that Darktan has been making.

Teamwork is going to be EMPOWERING aka when you have it you are MUCH STRONGER. As it is right now, unless you have it you CANNOT win.

As I have said before, you are at the complete mercy of idiots that do not teamplay. You can entice them all you want, but if they refuse to play as a team you are unable to proceed.

And sure, maybe looking to other genres for inspiration is bad but this does not excuse not fixing the stated problem.


This isn't defeatism. It is fixing a glaring issue with an outdated idea of what teamwork should be.

Rather than absolutely require all players to do the right thing in order to function which is fucking terrible when things don't go right, teamplay should be something that makes the team significantly more powerful when they decide to play as a team.



You know the metaphor about how 1 arrow can be broken but 10 are unstoppable?

The outdated version of teamwork would be "Two arrows of wood 1, four arrows of wood 2, and four arrow of wood 3 are unstoppable."

Darktan's fixed teamwork would be much more in line with the actual metaphor.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Oct 16th 2014, 8:20pm)


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56

Thursday, October 16th 2014, 8:17pm

I still don't see why Hardline's ammo snatch system can't be introduced in the Teamplay Initiative. Just look at all the new additions from the Core Gameplay Initiative; I'm sure they have the ability to transfer that information to BF4.
This suggestion has come up many times, and the devs have been very clear about how it is not the way they want to go.

I agree with them. It doesn't promote teamwork at all, and in fact stifles it. If you can just walk up to someone and press E to ammo-rape them, do you think that will encourage or discourage the support player to drop ammo on his own?

To me, teamwork is defined by me doing something to help you (or my team in general). If I can go up to you and grab ammo without you doing anything, it may look like teamwork but in reality I'm only helping myself.

The support player may be jokingly derided as just an "ammo-dispenser", but with this suggestion he will literally be that. Being a walking vending machine has nothing to do with teamwork in my eyes - the support player is not involved and there is no teamwork effort on his part.

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57

Thursday, October 16th 2014, 9:32pm

Again, nowhere was it stated that you'd regenerate ammo fast enough that Support is trivialized. Your entire line of reasoning falls apart at step 2.

And nowhere was it stated, before my analysis, that the regeneration rate would be slow enough to retain the purpose of ammo boxes yet quick enough to kick in before the average time lived. There was a lack of information and detail when I made that assumption. That has been addressed now, albeit with the vaguest of vague vagueness.

Ammo Regeneration by itself would be slow and enough for you to get by.

Enough to get by. That's all one needs to be self-sufficient. That's how most people live and thrive. Sure they have the option to earn surplus, but why make the effort when they can get by on the bare minimum?

Think of it like a 30 round magazine. In this particular situation, you have one enemy to dispatch and one enemy alone. The minimum bullets required to eliminate this enemy, as stated by BF4 Normal, non-Body Armor, chest shot characteristics, is 5 for a standard (24 - 18 damage) assault rifle out to 30 meters. You have 5 rounds left to neutralize him. You have the ability to complete your objective without having to rely on another to assist. The extra 25 rounds would be a nice cushion in case you miss, but 5 is all that is necessary. You are self-sufficient; you do not need team work to succeed. Teamwork enables support, but if you wanted to you could carry out your task on your own.

Automatic Ammo Regeneration = abolishing the need for teamwork

It doesn't promote teamwork at all, and in fact stifles it. If you can just walk up to someone and press E to ammo-rape them, do you think that will encourage or discourage the support player to drop ammo on his own?

To me, teamwork is defined by me doing something to help you (or my team in general). If I can go up to you and grab ammo without you doing anything, it may look like teamwork but in reality I'm only helping myself.

That Support is being a team player just by selecting the class and allowing you to "ammo-rape" him as you call it. That fulfills your definition of teamwork: "[one] doing something to help [another] (or [the] team in general)."

No, but attributing twice as many points to an ammo box resupply as opposed to an ammo snatch resupply should compel them.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


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58

Thursday, October 16th 2014, 9:38pm

Wanna help your team by sneaking through enemy territory to provide spawns? THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK FGT I HOPE YOU RUN OUT OF MOTION BALLS TOO EARLY TO BE SUCCESSFUL
Wanna be Javelin squad but only have two guys? BETTER NOT GET YOUR SOFLAM KILLED FGT THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK WITHOUT A SUPPORT DUDE DROPPING AMMO ON YOU EVERY 2 MINUTES

If you want shitty settings, play Hardcore. Normal should be for people who like to get things done.
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Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"

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59

Thursday, October 16th 2014, 9:43pm

SOFLAM

Hahaha, SOFLAM. PLD says hi.

Gadgets can regenerate; I have absolutely no problem with that, but ammo?

No.

Ammo needs to be manually resupplied.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.75
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 1.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.34
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.2
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 1.2
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0

No Slowdown Data

Source code

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 1.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom -1.0
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.0
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 0.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.0
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0


No Auto Rotation Data

Source code

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 AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.75
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 1.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.34
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0

Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


Posts: 4,259

Date of registration
: Apr 6th 2012

Platform: PC

Location: From the heart of Europe.

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

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60

Thursday, October 16th 2014, 9:49pm

shit range, easy to be killed while using it nice try to be smart 0/10

Ammo should not regenerate to prevent good players from being able to do too well, I guess.
[Aristocrat's Shoes]
TLDR -
Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"