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  • "Veritable" started this thread

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Friday, June 27th 2014, 1:38am

Spread / V-Recoil Increase / Recovery for Burst Weapons

I am working on some calculations to answer a question that has been nagging me for awhile: With no recoil compensation, can Carbines on burst mode land enough lower-damaging bullets to out-damage DMRs? If so, which ones and out to what range?

Let's say the M4 + Heavy Barrel + (not Angled Foregrip so Third Shot Recoil is unmodified), ADS - Not Moving, 3 rounds burst and no compensation, is the following correct?

1st bullet:
- V-Recoil 0
- Spread 0.15 degrees from aim point

2nd bullet:
- V-Recoil 0.42 degrees from aim point
- Spread 0.15 + 0.104 = 0.254 degrees from new base impact point calculated from recoil

3rd bullet:
- V-Recoil 0.42 + (0.42 * 2.5 = 1.05) = 1.47 degrees from aim point
- Spread 0.254 + 0.104 = 0.358 degrees from new base impact point calculated from recoil

Now I stop firing to let both V-Recoil and Spread to settle. For the M4, Recoil Decrease is 18 degrees / second, while Spread Decrease is 15 degrees / second.

Thus, the time for V-Recoil to return to 0 is 1.47 / 18 = ~0.08166 second, while the time for Spread to return to the base 0.15 is 0.208 / 15 = ~0.01386 second.

Since Spread recovers faster than V-Recoil, then I can use the V-Recoil recovery to calculate the "optimal click rate," where every trigger pull is free from previous Spread and Recoil. Pulling the trigger once every ~0.08166 second is ~12 times a second, or ~734rpm.

Just want to make sure I'm on the right path before going forward. Thanks in advance!

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Friday, June 27th 2014, 2:07am

1) The FSM on burst-fire weapons is taken into account following the burst, so the VRecoil of the third shot should be .42 + .42. If you fire a second burst (fourth shot), the recoil would be .42 + .42 + 2.5 * .42. For full-auto weapons being tapfired, the FSM takes place on the first shot of a burst rather than the last.

2) Spread and recoil recovery aren't actually linear but if you're just using them for comparison, it should be fine. If memory serves, Rezal said that they were third-order but I'm not certain.

3) Horizontal recoil should be taken into account. There are three approximations you can do.
a) Best case--the gun recoils purely upwards, like how you have it above. Total horizontal recoil is 0.00.
b) Worst case--the gun recoils to its maximum horizontal recoil. Total horizontal recoil is .40 + .40 + .40 = 1.20.
c) Average case--the gun recoils to where it goes on average. Total horizontal recoil is .15 + .15 + .15 = .45.
To take this into account, pick which scenario and calculate the horizontal recoil you achieve. Then use the Pythagorean Theorem to find the total recoil to recover (R^2=V^2+H^2) and divide that by the recoil decrease to get the time it takes for recoil to recover.

4) As a general rule, recoil recovery is much slower than spread recovery on most weapons, revolvers are an exception though (if memory serves).

5) Spread and recoil recovery start when the next shot is ready to be fired. For the M4, this is 60/800 seconds or .075 seconds. Don't forget that you have to fire a full burst, even if the recoil from the first shot pulls the gun over the target's head. Take the time it takes for recovery to start, add the time the recovery takes to get X seconds, then 60/X is your effective RoF.

Finally, I'm going to link you to one of my older posts:
Spread and Recoil Recovery
These are Matlab calculators I made for BF3. The FSM is calculated on the first shot for all weapons, but other than that, you should be fine (if you have Matlab).
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  • "Veritable" started this thread

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Friday, June 27th 2014, 2:42am

Thanks Nick!

For the 3rd bullet V-Recoil, I'm going by this tweet by Demize99: https://twitter.com/Demize99/status/397671215445196800 where he said that you get 2 low-recoil shots.

For the final report I will incorporate H-Recoil to just work out the possible hit rates of each shot. I will use Hitrater for that. I'm more interested in V-Recoil right now simply because I want to kind of have an idea as to at which V-Recoil vs. what range can you expect to land 2 shots in chest or even 1 chest 1 head against a standing target.

So if Recoil and Spread only starts recovery after the next round is ready to fire, then add 0.075s to both recovery times? So ~0.1567s for the total V-Recoil after the burst and 0.0888s for the total Spread Increase?

Since I am comparing to DMRs, who already have Optimal Click Rates calculated by 3VN, and their ADS - Not Moving spread are all more than accurate enough to score center-mass hits out to a very long range, their expected damage output at pretty much any range is easy to calculate. Click at those rates, and you will suffer no spread increase nor any recoil. So, I want to concentrate on burst-capable Carbines and shoot them as if they are DMRs: click, bullets leave the barrel naturally with no compensation, let the weapon settle before clicking again.

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Friday, June 27th 2014, 3:02am

1) The FSM on burst-fire weapons is taken into account following the burst, so the VRecoil of the third shot should be .42 + .42. If you fire a second burst (fourth shot), the recoil would be .42 + .42 + 2.5 * .42. For full-auto weapons being tapfired, the FSM takes place on the first shot of a burst rather than the last.

Really? Wow, I never realized that. Is this true of all burst fire weapons in the game, even ones that can fire in full as well (AK12 family, MTAR...)?

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Friday, June 27th 2014, 3:09am

1) The FSM on burst-fire weapons is taken into account following the burst, so the VRecoil of the third shot should be .42 + .42. If you fire a second burst (fourth shot), the recoil would be .42 + .42 + 2.5 * .42. For full-auto weapons being tapfired, the FSM takes place on the first shot of a burst rather than the last.

Really? Wow, I never realized that. Is this true of all burst fire weapons in the game, even ones that can fire in full as well (AK12 family, MTAR...)?


@Veritable

If I'm reading what Nick's saying correctly, which is FSM moved to fourth shot, he's wrong.

What Demize says is correct. The FSM applies to the last bullet of burst mode. Which means if you fire a weapon in burst mode, the last bullet of the burst will have the FSM applied so yes AK-12, MTAR, etc. will have this as well.
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Friday, June 27th 2014, 3:10am

Thanks Nick!

For the 3rd bullet V-Recoil, I'm going by this tweet by Demize99: https://twitter.com/Demize99/status/397671215445196800 where he said that you get 2 low-recoil shots.

For the final report I will incorporate H-Recoil to just work out the possible hit rates of each shot. I will use Hitrater for that. I'm more interested in V-Recoil right now simply because I want to kind of have an idea as to at which V-Recoil vs. what range can you expect to land 2 shots in chest or even 1 chest 1 head against a standing target.

So if Recoil and Spread only starts recovery after the next round is ready to fire, then add 0.075s to both recovery times? So ~0.1567s for the total V-Recoil after the burst and 0.0888s for the total Spread Increase?

Since I am comparing to DMRs, who already have Optimal Click Rates calculated by 3VN, and their ADS - Not Moving spread are all more than accurate enough to score center-mass hits out to a very long range, their expected damage output at pretty much any range is easy to calculate. Click at those rates, and you will suffer no spread increase nor any recoil. So, I want to concentrate on burst-capable Carbines and shoot them as if they are DMRs: click, bullets leave the barrel naturally with no compensation, let the weapon settle before clicking again.

Yeah, so the FSM is now the TSM, taken into account on the the third shot instead of the first.

Yeah, that's how you're doing it. It's kind of strange how you do it though. Timer starts at 0, first round is fired. Timer at .075, round 2 is fired. Timer at .15, third round fired. Timer at .225, recovery starts. So even though it's after the third round, you still do 3*.075. Which is counterintuitive as hell.

@Balls
I don't actually know, I haven't tested it. I'm playing BL2 with my brother atm, otherwise I'd go test for you. Sorry :(
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Quoted from "Pheozero"

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23:58 Nick: AS A BIIIIRD NOW
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ViperFTW: I WANT TO SWAT IT WITH MY COMICLY LARGE SWORD
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ViperFTW: THIS
ViperFTW: AS
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ViperFTW: FUUUUCKING SOUNDTRACK :DDDD
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  • "Veritable" started this thread

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Friday, June 27th 2014, 8:50am

Yeah, that's how you're doing it. It's kind of strange how you do it though. Timer starts at 0, first round is fired. Timer at .075, round 2 is fired. Timer at .15, third round fired. Timer at .225, recovery starts. So even though it's after the third round, you still do 3*.075. Which is counterintuitive as hell.


Ahh yes, I failed to take into account the time it takes for the M4 to fire the 3 bullets.

So, if we take everything as a single entity, I can say that for the M4 to spit out 3 bullets AND THEN begin to recover Spread / V-Recoil (which happens when the gun CAN fire the 4th round, as dictated by the 800rpm model, even though I'm not shooting it in this case), is (60 / 800) * 4 = 0.3 second.

Adding the 0.3 second to the V-Recoil decrease time works out to ~157rpm to shoot 3 bullets from the M4 without being affected by V-Recoil on the 1st round of any subsequent burst. For Spread Increase to settle, I got ~191rpm.

I have also read that Spread recovers slower than Recoil, but it doesn't seem to be the case here. Is it because I am not adding H-Recoil into the account? That is something I am trying to avoid, because I will be using H-Recoil + Spread to solely calculate the expected hit rates vs. a chest hitbox and a head hitbox. Since H-Recoil is random then won't the "optimal click rate" be variable as well?

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Friday, June 27th 2014, 11:24am

For the 3rd bullet V-Recoil, I'm going by this tweet by Demize99: https://twitter.com/Demize99/status/397671215445196800 where he said that you get 2 low-recoil shots.
your first shot is not affected by recoil, only 2 subsequent shots are so what demize said makes sense, you get the TSM kick after you fired all rounds in the bursts

are you taking into account that horizontal recoil and spread combined will mean you will miss shots at certain ranges? what I am saying is, you need to think about the end result, is it going to be effective TTK?
hit probability? accuracy per shot? to get accurate TTK you need to have either a very constricted scenario or you go simulation.

Even hit probability is tricky, as in, what if your recoil pulls your gun left but spread goes right and they neutralise each other? or recoil and spread make the bullet go super left? and how often does that happen? etc, etc,
a solution could be to keep the range small enough for all rounds to hit
but that's gonna be below 40m and that's not very interesting since you
are comparing DMRs

but you could just use the hitrate simulator to give you a hit probability at a certain range. then you get effective TTK straight from that!
Moving ADS spread values

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Friday, June 27th 2014, 11:46am

For the 3rd bullet V-Recoil, I'm going by this tweet by Demize99: https://twitter.com/Demize99/status/397671215445196800 where he said that you get 2 low-recoil shots.
*Meaning that the recoil for the third shot is increased. Recoil is applied after each shot, so the third shot recoil is applied after the third shot.

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Friday, June 27th 2014, 1:27pm

Yeah, that's how you're doing it. It's kind of strange how you do it though. Timer starts at 0, first round is fired. Timer at .075, round 2 is fired. Timer at .15, third round fired. Timer at .225, recovery starts. So even though it's after the third round, you still do 3*.075. Which is counterintuitive as hell.


Ahh yes, I failed to take into account the time it takes for the M4 to fire the 3 bullets.

So, if we take everything as a single entity, I can say that for the M4 to spit out 3 bullets AND THEN begin to recover Spread / V-Recoil (which happens when the gun CAN fire the 4th round, as dictated by the 800rpm model, even though I'm not shooting it in this case), is (60 / 800) * 4 = 0.3 second.

Adding the 0.3 second to the V-Recoil decrease time works out to ~157rpm to shoot 3 bullets from the M4 without being affected by V-Recoil on the 1st round of any subsequent burst. For Spread Increase to settle, I got ~191rpm.

I have also read that Spread recovers slower than Recoil, but it doesn't seem to be the case here. Is it because I am not adding H-Recoil into the account? That is something I am trying to avoid, because I will be using H-Recoil + Spread to solely calculate the expected hit rates vs. a chest hitbox and a head hitbox. Since H-Recoil is random then won't the "optimal click rate" be variable as well?

No, it's 3*.075 to fire all 3 and then wait for recovery. Think of it like a stopwatch--you fire the first round at time 0, second at .075, third at .075+.075, fourth is ready (recovery starts) at .15+.075=.225.
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23:44 Lt_Col_Jesus: I'm -
23:44 Lt_Col_Jesus: Okay
23:44 Lt_Col_Jesus: I'm stabbing everyone
23:44 Lt_Col_Jesus: Bye guys
23:44 Nick: *flips table*
23:44 Legion: Bye, happy stabbing
23:44 *** Lt_Col_Jesus quit (Quit: off to murder the public at large).

Quoted

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10:41 Dice: Well that would be unfortunate, I was just getting used to him being dead.

Quoted from "Pheozero"

... fuck. Damn you hindsight!

Quoted

23:58 Failure117: CAUSE IM FREEE
23:58 Nick: AS A BIIIIRD NOW
23:58 Failure117: FREEE OF NICK'S WORM RAPE

Quoted

ViperFTW: HEY LOOK
ViperFTW: AN ALIEN LASER FISH THE SIZE OF THE SUN
ViperFTW: I WANT TO SWAT IT WITH MY COMICLY LARGE SWORD
ViperFTW: WITH
ViperFTW: THIS
ViperFTW: AS
ViperFTW: MY
ViperFTW: FUUUUCKING SOUNDTRACK :DDDD
(the album in question)