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  • "Sapphidia" started this thread

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Thursday, February 20th 2014, 5:40pm

Dart Shells - hidden benefits?

Just a quick one - whilst the major difference in Darts from Buckshot for shotguns is a slightly better damage dropoff, a slightly tighter cone spread (except for the UTS-15) and generally less pellets per shell which do more damage per pellet, as well as not having damage reduced by Defensive Perk... I've heard lots of comments in threads and general talk about Darts going through player models or even light cover.

Now I know the description says they have "enhanced penetration", but I assumed this was purely the fact that Darts have a 100% damage model vs the Defensive perk, whereas Buckshot has 67% damage against chest shots. Do Darts have other properties though, which means they pass through players that they hit and can hit multiple players clumped up whereas Buckshot stops when it hits? Can Dart pellets go through thin cover? Is there ANYthing weird like that attached to dart shells or are they purely -numerically- different to buckshot in terms of spread/damage/pelletcount and armor mods?

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Thursday, February 20th 2014, 5:50pm

For a more complex disclosure on spread relations of dart and buckshot I'd like to point to the Shotguns Discussion thread, especially pages 19+.

To answer your questions: Flechette rounds / Dart rounds do indeed penetrate objects and especially players with greater effectiveness. You can easily hit two players standing behind each other and do good damage to both, while buckshot lacks that penetration. Thin wood panels are (I think) penetrated by buck and dart alike, but the latter retains greater damage potential and can easily pierce the thin rusted metal sheets around the tower in Op. Locker. Not sure if buckshot will do that in BF4.
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Of course, this ignores the non-constant cross-sectional first moment of area across the chest as well as non-constant material properties of the boob; it would be difficult to perform a more detailed analysis (as in, I'd have to have a shape function AND I'd need to derive a function for elastic modulus as a function of lateral breast coordinate) but whatever. It's 2am and I'm lazy.


I always believed science should be very hands on experience.

You should also answer this question I had posed in that thread: Would you be willing to pay your surgeon more if he was going to use a chainsaw for the opening incision of surgery? Clearly using a chainsaw isn't truly suited for surgery but that doesn't really matter. If he's "skilled" enough to be able to use the wrong tools of the trade, he should be rewarded for that skill right?


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Thursday, February 20th 2014, 5:54pm

Yes, flechettes have greater penetration than buckshot, as in it can shoot through players. I don't know how many players it can shoot through or how far behind a player it can deal damage and I don't think anyone here has ever tested it. The benefit is noticeable though and because of that flechettes is generally better against clumps of enemies than buckshot.

The extra penetration also allow flechettes to shoot through the tin metal rails on the stairs at C in Op Locker. Attempting to clear those stairs with buckshot is a nuisance and you are often better off with your secondary (at least when you are headed up) because it can shoot through those railings, unlike your buckshot primary. The extra penetration of flechettes is a huge advantage over buckshot and it comes in handy in more maps than just Lockers.

Flechettes also have a higher velocity than buckshot. It is not very relevant in up-front CQB but does make a difference when shooting players that are running perpendicular to your FOV.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

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Friday, February 21st 2014, 1:32am

You have some of your stats a little mixed up.

The flechette vs buckshot results in a better damage dropoff (correct), more accurate cone (correct), and are not effected by armor (correct), but generally speaking there is not a pellet amount modifier (except for the DAO, it seems).

The flechettes produce the same amount of pellets per shell as buck, but the flechette rounds have a lower max damage per pellet and a higher min damage per pellet. The result is that buckshot is a lot more powerful up close, but flechette is a lot more powerful at range.

The penetration advantage, as others have stated, is also a big help.


One would make the argument, and I would wholly agree, that Flechette are straight up better than Buck.

The max damage of buck with an 870 is (12x18 ) 216.
The max damage of Flech with an 870 is (12x12.5) 150.

Both will OHK point blank, even with armor, as the Buck minus the 67.1% reduction the armor gives is 144.93% damage, but that is assuming that ALL pellets will hit which is unlikely, even when 100% accurate with a full choke and being very close. However, being naturally more accurate the flechette will usually hit more than the buck...

By comparison, though, the min damage of each (again assuming 100% pellet contact) is B=72 F=100.8.

So the flechette has a chance (all be it very slim) of a OHK at max range with an 870 if all pellets hit.

Especially when playing on HC mode!

Overall, the flechette has a more "stable" damage curve, can still OHK up close, is more accurate, has higher damage at longer range, defeats armor, and penetrates thin cover.

I can't think of any reason to use Buck after unlocking Flech...
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Friday, February 21st 2014, 2:00am

The flechettes produce the same amount of pellets per shell as buck


not true. the amount of pellets a shotgun fires is determined by the shotguns themselves. in their data files, each shotgun explicitly states how many pellets of each shell type fires.

the DAO-12 is bugged because it defines 9 pellets for buckshots, and a whopping 12 for flechettes. this in turn gives it the same per shell damage as a 870 pumpaction, except it is semiauto. most (if not all. can't remember) other shotguns have the same number of pellets for buckshot and flechette. the DAO-12 seems to be the exception to that rule.

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Friday, February 21st 2014, 2:41am

The flechettes produce the same amount of pellets per shell as buck


not true. the amount of pellets a shotgun fires is determined by the shotguns themselves. in their data files, each shotgun explicitly states how many pellets of each shell type fires.

the DAO-12 is bugged because it defines 9 pellets for buckshots, and a whopping 12 for flechettes. this in turn gives it the same per shell damage as a 870 pumpaction, except it is semiauto. most (if not all. can't remember) other shotguns have the same number of pellets for buckshot and flechette. the DAO-12 seems to be the exception to that rule.


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Friday, February 21st 2014, 6:02am

The flechettes produce the same amount of pellets per shell as buck


not true. the amount of pellets a shotgun fires is determined by the shotguns themselves. in their data files, each shotgun explicitly states how many pellets of each shell type fires.

Yes, the pellet count changes shotgun to shotgun. But that's not what I said.

What I said is that flechette produces the same amount of pellets as buck (aside from the DAO)

DBV - B=9 F=9
HAWK - B=14 F =14
M1014 - B=9 F=9
QBS - B=11 F=11
870 - B=12 F=12
Saiga - B=9 F=9
SPAS - B=11 F=11
UTS - B=10 F=10
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Friday, February 21st 2014, 6:08am

What I said is that flechette produces the same amount of pellets as buck (aside from the DAO)


ehh. i somehow interpreted that as "flechette pellet count is determined by the buckshot pellet count", where they are clearly actually independent of each other. my mistake.

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Friday, February 21st 2014, 6:11am

What I said is that flechette produces the same amount of pellets as buck (aside from the DAO)


ehh. i somehow interpreted that as "flechette pellet count is determined by the buckshot pellet count", where they are clearly actually independent of each other. my mistake.


Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah, I guess I could have worded that better.

I wasn't speaking technically, just telling it like it is.
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