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31

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 11:57am

Did he just say "The G17 does less damage than the other pistols so we gave it lower recoil"?

Quoted

Operator: G17 has lower damage than most of the other Operator sidearms, the tradeoff is less recoil.

BF: Hardline: 92FS vs P226 vs CZ-75 vs G17 | BF: Hardline Multi-Weapon Comparison | Symthic

And does it really matter if the engine "uses the stats differently" as long as 1 still equals 1 and 1+1 still equals 2?

It's obvious that they don't want the mathematically dictated balancing BF4 now has, but having a purely "skill based" system where harder to use means more powerful does not lead to a balanced and varied gameplay experience.

On reddit I usually allude to CS:GO, which to my (limited) knowledge has one pistol, two assault rifles and one sniper rifle that are worth using if you want to play seriously: Deagle, AK/M4, AWP.
Zormau - Battlelog / Battlefield 4

Memorable quotes not taken yet:


Of course, this ignores the non-constant cross-sectional first moment of area across the chest as well as non-constant material properties of the boob; it would be difficult to perform a more detailed analysis (as in, I'd have to have a shape function AND I'd need to derive a function for elastic modulus as a function of lateral breast coordinate) but whatever. It's 2am and I'm lazy.


I always believed science should be very hands on experience.

You should also answer this question I had posed in that thread: Would you be willing to pay your surgeon more if he was going to use a chainsaw for the opening incision of surgery? Clearly using a chainsaw isn't truly suited for surgery but that doesn't really matter. If he's "skilled" enough to be able to use the wrong tools of the trade, he should be rewarded for that skill right?


VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

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32

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 12:04pm

Well that kind of made my day. I am kind of part of the feeltrain here on symthic as well, a gun's performance for me is not only piled up by stats and numbers but how they interact with each other along with aesthetics and my own capabilities with this weapon. So I can understand their point there. I am also quite willing to acknowledge their approach to balane weapons individually and to compile an own role for each, I think this can really work.

However there are some flaws with this: This becomes incredibly harder to balance the more weapons you have, you will, sooner or later, run into a state where all niches are filled. Then again some underlying mechanics or standards must still be kept. Roughly balancing damage around calibre and barrel length, similar to BF4, and then filling the niches is sensible. Obviously the balance outline in Hardline was different if one was used at all as a template. If anything while overall probably increasing the balance since release, the consistency obviously dropped. If we had two or three weapons per class this would work of course, with that many, no, not with the effort they've put in so far.

Take BF4 for comparison. We know this calibre does this max damage and this min damage, damage drop-off is usually determined by barrel length or weapon class. This has not yet anything to do with balance, it is just a template and balance and niches are done by recoil, ROF and spread largely. It is easier that way. Of course there are some exceptions like BAs and DMRs, but on the whole it works like that. Of course there is then an issue with some weapons being rather similar to others in most aspects, where one leaves the other rather obsolete, the M1911 and the Compact45 come to mind here. The Compact 45 has more going for it, but still the M1911 is far from useless, you can still work with it, because you know how these weapons work.
In Hardline this is obviously different, independent of calibre, appearance, barrel length or class, each stat can differ greatly from the next weapon. You choose a weapon because you expect certain things of it, yet they do not behave like you thought. It is pretty imminent when looking at drop-off ranges and min damages. A drop off like the M1911 will always leave questions when using it. 4m is what I would still define as point blank range, and suddenly it moves from a 2-3 shot kill, and at, like 20m or so, it becomes a 10 hit or something? So with a mag size of, I guess, 9 you could not even kill a guy, even with 100% accuracy. Then the Compact 45, and I will only refer roughly to MarbleDuck's video, has the same calibre, should fill the same niche, but behaves totally different. People will ask why that is.
That being said, the L85 is obviously a typo and nothing uncommon, too, BF4 was using the wrong scopes for bullpups for a year or even more and noone noticed, I would not condemn them for something that happens all the time.
So, as a conclusion, I believe that games should use, before individual balance, follow a maxim, an rule dictating certain outlines, it does not have to be a formula, like in BF4, but a rough template so every weapon within this template can fulfill a role decently.

Considering the thread, I think it is a bit unfair to critisise MarbleDuck that harshly or at all. The Dev was obviously agitated by him not bothering to post Hardline gameplay. But, and I guess he did so later, if he looked at MarbleDucks channel he would have seen that he has put up a few videos talking about balance in Hardline and BF4 before, where he puts out a lot of critisism in a constructive way. Good and decent proposes as well, and a lot of them ended up being put on the game or praising the work of Devs with patches.
It is a bit a fault on Viscerals side (and EA at that), that the game was released in the way it was (we would not talk about this at all, if it had come as a standalone add-on, or a BF4 DLC, or a proper but smaller scaled spin-off to the franchise, and for 30 bucks instead of an AAA title that it never was).

I do wonder though how the engine or code can handle the files in a different way so that balance is altered. Wouldn't hidden multiplicators or similar be in the files as well somewhere? And with how differently weapons work in Hardline how many alterations would there be so that the game becomes more balanced and consistent than it is on paper, or even, symthic. He states so, and as Dev should speak the truth, but that somehow defiles this site. Also Hardline must do things completely different from BF4 if that was really the case.

In the end I think the replies were a bit rushed, did MarbleDuck post the video uncommented himself in Battlelog?

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "VincentNZ" (Jun 30th 2015, 12:29pm)


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33

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 12:47pm

tl;dr balance by feels, right?

a massive facepalm is needed then.
"I'm just a loot whore."


stuff mostly unrelated to BF4 that interests nobody



bf4
on 13/05/2016
23rd M320FB user on pc(13/05/16)
rush mode score RANK:2794 TOP:2% OUT OF:215398
obliteration mode scoreRANK:994 TOP:1% OUT OF:159466
handgun medals RANK:2236 TOP:2% OUT OF:143874
longest headshot RANK:9512 TOP:4% OUT OF:257589
recon score RANK:10871 TOP:4% OUT OF:274899
general score per minute RANK:10016 TOP:4% OUT OF:294774

bf3
31/3/2012 4:58:

Headshot distance RANK:493* TOP:0%
Revives per assault minute RANK: 6019 TOP: 3%
Headshots / kill percentage RANK:25947 TOP:13%
MVP ribbons RANK:18824 TOP:11%

*= 6 if we not count the EOD BOT headshots

@kataklism

ARGUMENT DESTROYED 100

ENEMY KILLED [REASON] JSLICE20 100


WRITING SPREE STOPPED 500

link to full-size old avatar:
http://i.imgur.com/4X0321O.gif




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34

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 1:38pm

The game's problem is somewhere else, but not the weapon balance.

Remember BF3 weapon "balance". AEK/M16/M4/M5k - in other words: high ROF = WIN

Though every weapon has its own character.

Looking at BF4 weapon balance. Balanced BUT weapons lost their "soul"

IF Visceral wants weapons with "soul" and a difference balance approach. I am interested, and it makes the game different and fresh.

Apart from that the Attachments fuck up with the balance, so freely quotet from @Rezal: "And fix the damn Attachments"

@NoctyrneSAGA

Thats an interesting balance approach, I didnt thought of it. But then different Headshot Multipliers for each weapon would make sense.


Last but not Least:

Its a shame, what I read in the Original Post. Tbh, I couldnt manage to keep as calm as Visceral did. I suggest the Official Symthic Spokesman has to apologize for the behaviour of some members. That's not a proper behaviour.
still playin' Motorstorm

Miffyli

Symthic Developer

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35

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 1:53pm

@Miffyli do your funny tools work in Hardline?

The recoil/spread one? Yeah I patched that for BFH a while ago if I remember correctly.
In that case it would be fairly easy to verify whether assumptions about gunsway parameters are actually correct.

Hybrid ingame-rawvalue testing is a go! I could do some testing myself but would be nice to have somebody ( @NoctyrneSAGA ? ) to do for me so I can now focus on the bf4 kill-distance recording and summerjob's tasks.

Also: IMHO Symthic community should all in all go in direction that helps game's devs in one way or another, whether it is noticing random mistakes in number typos or making players aware of the true side of things that could lead to the better balance.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

VincentNZ

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36

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 1:57pm

Apologise? What for?

Marble did not post the video himself. And even if he did, what would it mean for symthic? He just used the numbers to critisise Visceral for their balancing. We all have an opinion about it and there even is a tendency that MarbleDuck is somewhat right if the numbers are applied as indicated by the files.

Or for Xuvial backing him up here and on Battlelog? It was the Dev that mentioned symthic in the first place and saying this site is incomplete and that the data is not applicable because it is not how they work in-game. By all we know, he might even be the one that is misinformed. So if this site would want to react, if it should at all at a meaningless quarrel, it could see how the numbers work differently than they do in BF4 and if this could really have an outcome of how the game plays out.

There are hundreds of threads about balance every day just because a member got into a not self-inflicted conflict of opinions does not mean anyone here has to do anything at all.

Sheepnub

I pity the wool

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37

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 2:23pm

Apologise? What for?

Marble did not post the video himself. And even if he did, what would it mean for symthic? He just used the numbers to critisise Visceral for their balancing.

What Miffy is trying to say, in a much more friendly tone than I'm about to: Our community is making sure we're reaching the exact opposite of what we wish to accomplish. Using data in order to make fun of people who aren't aware of it, publicly calling people literally idiots/degenerates purely for the sake of the 'lulz', and this all along with general douchebaggery and elitism.
Every time someone asks a relatively commonly known question, heaven forbid their sanity...DICE/Visceral makes a blatant mistake? "LOL Fucking DICE they can't do shit right". Or, heaven forbid, if you have a different opinion on how the asymmetrical balance in this game should turn out to be....

We are no longer the "all-knowing science-ey nerds of battlefield with an insatiable hunger for knowledge". No. Thanks to our community we are currently "That toxic bunch of annoying know-it-all assholes that are trashtalking literally everyone else that isn't us.", unfortunately.

We, because that unfortunately is how we're judged, are collectively making sure we're slowly losing every last bit of credibility we have.

I wish we could be working to improve things. Get involved. Start making a difference to the game we all love.
"I put aside a few sceptics, the types of decency in the history of philosophy: the rest haven't the slightest conception of intellectual integrity."
Friedrich Nietzsche


Best of epic quotes :D

Spoiler Spoiler

Just realized it's 4/20 tomorrow


Thanks for the heads up!
*Logs out of Symthic in preparation*

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

>littlebird passanger, semi-auto frag rounds
>gunship OP

Meanwhile at DICE-headquarters during BF4's release:

I'm pretty sure there's a massive post-it on every desk "DON'T FUCKING TOUCH ANYTHING THAT IS ACTUALLY DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE DOING"

UCAV:
"Hey guys remember how stupid prenerf mav was?"

"Lets add c4 to it."

The World Champion went to China once.

They called me a Gweilo.

So I kicked a big fucking hole in their wall and let all the Mongolians in.

just thought I'd share.


The thought of Assaults running out of ACE 23 rounds mid firefight, Engineers facing the rear of an unaware MBT with no rockets left, Recons unable to...Whatever the fuck they do. These are the things that keep me up at night ;(


About hunturk:
I don't know what's funnier, the video itself of the fact that an unlisted video has more views than most of your normal videos :P

...


You just live to hit people upside the noggin with a Math Bomb, don't you?

[context] Maybe it's the UK's overly aggressive porn filter at work. After all, it does have the word "monkey" in it and monkeys have been known to have sex so...


Previously, at DICE HQ:
"Ok guys, the password is "epic dream worlds"; everyone take a letter and do your best to turn it into into something random that we can put into a picture!"


I assume a functional game (BF4) also.

Aww!
*pinches cheeks*
So cute!


But but but

He's a Youtuber ;(

There's no way he doesn't know what he's talking about

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Sheepnub" (Jun 30th 2015, 2:44pm)


marbleduck

Smoked Salmon Best Salmon

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38

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 2:51pm

like what marbleduck has exhibited. You do not simply get "the right" to give up on a game just because you don't think your ideas are getting heard. Zachulon has guaranteed live that he reads every bit of feedback and watches every video. This thread has made it obvious that Zachulon is now paying attention to marble and he probably could have chosen a better video to start off with.


Yes, he shouldn't have looked at that video first. He should have looked at the three others, all three of which being respectful and constructive.

If we're so wrong about how the game works (and I really, really, don't think we are), then it's in Visceral's interest to tell us what we're doing wrong, and I, and others, can provide improved feedback.

I "gave up" on the game because it was too frustrating to play. I hated having three viable weapons in each class to use, and body armor was a game-ruiner.

And one more point:

For fuck's sake man!
If you—this applies to ANY of you have ANY problem with ANY of my content, there's three different ways you can contact me—forum, IRC, Teamspeak—please, for the love of god, CONTACT me! I didn't start the channel so that I could become another LevelCrap, who can't be reached with the intent of correcting misinformation or otherwise. My goal is to be a source of reliable information, and to do that, I need your help. So, Noctyrne, if you're thinking these thoughts about my videos before they're posted on Battlelog, please tell me. This applies to everyone here.

Platoon Marble Duck

Hate Mail

"you obviously don't know what an argument is as there is only one person battling. Do you really fucking think I want subs? You think you can act all big and powerful just because you sit on a computer at least 6 hours a day like the probably nerdy unwanted retard you are with 4.3k subs? You think 4.3k subs is a lot? LOL you need medicine man. I don't want any subs as i just have a google account for other media and writing comments. Think twice before you act. You even said in your video you aren't that great of a player, and the comments agree you aren't. Maybe you should once again think twice before you act, stop being such an annoying, ignorant bastard that everyone wants to shut up, and god, literally, just shut up. Your voice gave me a headache :s"

"As a youtuber shouldn't be trying to be reeling in your viewers with exciting stuff being said not your boring ass commentary for your video"

"The more you watch his vid the dumber he gets I swear he's borderline autistic look I got shot behind cover beacuase thin sheets metal are unpenetrable. Bf4 is just as quiet and tactical as bf3 random explosion in the background . Player has dissconected from chat
You started playing bf3 and never touched bfc1/2. Please do yourself a favor and shutdown your generic cod channel down"

"Nice clickb8 Faggot w8ting for your shit tier video to disable comments . Fucking newfag cancer go play some cod you activisiom cock faggot"

"I don't see why he [MarbleDuck] always tries to shit on levelcap he is better and has a million more subs...and also "there isnt a best gun in she game there are guns that are better that others at different engagement distances" yes thats true and whichever is the best/most average at all of them is the "best gun""

"Marbleduck you don't know shit lol levelcap knows more than you do you cant talk about how someone puts up garbage when you do yourself your a newcomer to YouTube acting like you know shit step up in the food chain first then you have the right to talk otherwise your just a fish trying to compete with sharks"

"Why don't we just witness "LevelCap vs MarbleDuck" One on One both on Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 4 seen as there is so much Controversy about the Two Youtubers"

"stfu cunt, BF3 was way better end of discussion"

"Stfu man, you're be littleing the most looked upon Battlefield Youtuber. No one cares about you, how much of an ego you have, or quite frankly your opinion. It's a fucking game.... Does it really fucking matter? Pathetic man."

"fuck you asshole, dont talk shit about total"

"Wtf is your problem? You have no subs and he has millions, yet you pick on him like some kind of stubborn, ignorant, rude child born with a silver spoon is his mouth. It's easy to do that, for example... You said there was no background noise yet there is. You say you're a fairly good player, you're not."

"please talk like a normal person and not like a professional"

VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

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39

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 2:54pm

@Sheepnub

Usually I would agree, I think some people take this way too seriously here, arrogant elitism is widely spread on this site and has been for quite some time, but today on this topic, this goes beyond the usual youtube-bash or rolled eyes on a newbie question, or the ever going competitive vs. public discussion.

I just do not think anybody on here did anything wrong. For me it is like this: The Hardline gun balance was a lackluster, I think we could agree on that, even if one thinks the starting concept of individual weapons is a nice idea. The patches did some work but many still feel it is askew, inconsistent or even chaotic. Then someone made a video, who is a member of this site, where he states that he is quite disappointed with the changes so far, in particular the last patch. That guy has done a whole series of constructive videos before on both games. A random guy posts it uncommented on battlelog and a discussion of only 2 pages occur, which leads an equally agitated Dev to make a statement that kind of puts a question mark behind all the numbers and our conclusions on this site.
So far his statement might be true, or might be wrong, or might be true but has no meaning about the interpretation of the numbers. This of course agitates people here. I, for myself, would say that the numbers, presented here, show a mostly precise picture of how BF4 plays out, and also how BFH played out from my -only beta- experiences. Judging from gameplay I've seen of some others, I would say the numbers here have are carried over to the game with no modifications or none that have an impact on overall balances.

I mean the official patchnotes on weapon balances must state the same as the symthic style patchnotes, but without the exact numbers. So all in all I think the Dev might be the one that is misinformed (if he is more of a community manager and general designer he does not need to be informed either) and that is fine, until he made that unprovoked claim from nowhere. That was a bit irritating, because it was not about symthic at all at this point.

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 5:58pm

Am I the only one who is very excited that @NoctyrneSAGA and @Miffyli are going to do some testing? By the way, I might be able to help with that... if it's not too complicated. I have time on my hands the coming weekend.
Zormau - Battlelog / Battlefield 4

Memorable quotes not taken yet:


Of course, this ignores the non-constant cross-sectional first moment of area across the chest as well as non-constant material properties of the boob; it would be difficult to perform a more detailed analysis (as in, I'd have to have a shape function AND I'd need to derive a function for elastic modulus as a function of lateral breast coordinate) but whatever. It's 2am and I'm lazy.


I always believed science should be very hands on experience.

You should also answer this question I had posed in that thread: Would you be willing to pay your surgeon more if he was going to use a chainsaw for the opening incision of surgery? Clearly using a chainsaw isn't truly suited for surgery but that doesn't really matter. If he's "skilled" enough to be able to use the wrong tools of the trade, he should be rewarded for that skill right?