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NoctyrneSAGA

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21

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 7:49am

It has nothing to do with being like BF4, and everything to do with actually having any semblance of logic or consistency within its own design. Hardline can try to be whatever it wants, but it still has to actually execute well.


It is on that front we may have to rethink the paradigm of balance in the context of BFH.

Applying the logic that the weapons were meant to be balanced uniquely rather than formulaicly, the values used might actually make some sense given their rationale. Their thought process was probably something like this:



ARM: High capacity AR with low SIPS and low recoil all around. Originally featured a bullet that would certainly not let it take advantage of the range conferred by this superior accuracy. But what if the point of low recoil was not superior accuracy but useability? In fact, when you consider its muzzle velocity, it most definitely is not a ranged AR. The magazine size, recoil, and SIPS point it out to be an EASY TO USE AR. It would be entirely justified using its old bullet in Visceral's eyes. However, in a fast-paced game like Hardline, that lack of DPS probably was too lackluster which is why it has the new high damage bullet to make it more attractive.

AKM: Unique heavy hitting AR with lots of Vrecoil and pretty hefty SIPS. Arguably balanced as a "skill" weapon thanks to this. Follows the logic of the higher the damage, harder it is to use.

M416: Moderate AR with easier to handle FSM for tapfiring than the M16A3. The higher SIPS FSM also seems to imply that this is what it is meant for. Lower recoil recovery is probably meant to increase challenge.

M16A3: Moderate AR with nearly the same accuracy as the M416. Less SIPS but slightly more Hrecoil. More FSM. Probably meant to be full auto'd with its lower Vrecoil. Lower recoil recovery is probably meant to increase challenge.

L85A2: Precision Battlepack weapon. Precision probably supposed to come from lower FSM, higher recoil recovery, and higher SDEC relative to other ARs. Fucked up due to SIPS. But if it was .09 SIPS, then it probably would be a fairly precise weapon. Visceral probably wanted this to compete with the ARM due to the latter being a Syndicate Reward that had slower recovery parameters.

ACWR: Versatility Battlepack weapon. Probably comes from the fast reloads and the rather strange spread values. What is seen here is almost no difference between its empty/tac reloads and its moving/stationary spread. I think the better name would have been consistency. It has rather low SIPS but that's not an issue. It has high Hrecoil which is still 2 directional AFAIK. Would still contribute lots of inaccuracy.

G36C: Close competitor to ACWR. Slightly slower ROF with better recoil and spread.

CAR-556: Suppression Battlepack weapon. Comes with an extra large magazine with a better fire rate than the ARM. While it has super high SIPS, that was probably meant to be offset by its low Hrecoil. I think the intention here was to make it easy to stay on target even if you weren't very accurate which is why it's Suppression.

RO933: Unique low damage high ROF Carbine. Low Hrecoil, low SIPS, and high recoil recovery means this thing is probably a "low skill low damage" weapon.

AKS-74u: Unique heavy hitting Carbine meant to be used up close. Really low Hrecoil, Vrecoil, and SIPS is probably offset by steep damage drop-off.

SG553: Easy to use carbine with low Hrecoil and low SIPS. Slower velocity compared to the similar G36C and CAR-556 furthers the sentiment that low recoil isn't meant for extra range but simply ease of use.



Not saying this is what they actually think. But given what Zachulon has said, this is probably close to what they were thinking even if their rationale or style is not necessarily good. Looking at it from the context of making each weapon unique and following an investment/reward system (which can be seen everywhere in Hardline), this actually seems reasonable. It serves to explain why the values deviate so much from known formula. It is because Hardline isn't driven by formulas but mostly by what they seem to want each weapon to do.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Jun 30th 2015, 7:56am)


Sheepnub

I pity the wool

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22

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 8:27am

All agitation put aside, the "you don't know what you're talking about" statement pretty much indicates we need to more research about the supposedly different mechanics in BFH. Even if it's a flopped game.

For science :|
"I put aside a few sceptics, the types of decency in the history of philosophy: the rest haven't the slightest conception of intellectual integrity."
Friedrich Nietzsche


Best of epic quotes :D

Spoiler Spoiler

Just realized it's 4/20 tomorrow


Thanks for the heads up!
*Logs out of Symthic in preparation*

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

>littlebird passanger, semi-auto frag rounds
>gunship OP

Meanwhile at DICE-headquarters during BF4's release:

I'm pretty sure there's a massive post-it on every desk "DON'T FUCKING TOUCH ANYTHING THAT IS ACTUALLY DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE DOING"

UCAV:
"Hey guys remember how stupid prenerf mav was?"

"Lets add c4 to it."

The World Champion went to China once.

They called me a Gweilo.

So I kicked a big fucking hole in their wall and let all the Mongolians in.

just thought I'd share.


The thought of Assaults running out of ACE 23 rounds mid firefight, Engineers facing the rear of an unaware MBT with no rockets left, Recons unable to...Whatever the fuck they do. These are the things that keep me up at night ;(


About hunturk:
I don't know what's funnier, the video itself of the fact that an unlisted video has more views than most of your normal videos :P

...


You just live to hit people upside the noggin with a Math Bomb, don't you?

[context] Maybe it's the UK's overly aggressive porn filter at work. After all, it does have the word "monkey" in it and monkeys have been known to have sex so...


Previously, at DICE HQ:
"Ok guys, the password is "epic dream worlds"; everyone take a letter and do your best to turn it into into something random that we can put into a picture!"


I assume a functional game (BF4) also.

Aww!
*pinches cheeks*
So cute!


But but but

He's a Youtuber ;(

There's no way he doesn't know what he's talking about


  • "Xuvial" started this thread

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23

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 9:18am

It is because Hardline isn't driven by formulas but mostly by what they seem to want each weapon to do.
I can see how this makes more sense to them. So they could be simply going for "we want this gun to do X" while completely ignoring how strong weapons are relative to each other...or maybe relative power is just super low priority for them. True balance is screwed in that case.

Miffyli

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24

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 9:31am

@Miffyli do your funny tools work in Hardline?

The recoil/spread one? Yeah I patched that for BFH a while ago if I remember correctly.

It is true we don't know _exactly_ how the game works as the engine is still in binary and borderline impossible to "decipher", and Visc has used some new ways to add stuff that made my few year old scripts buck up quite a bit, sooo... At the same time I highly doubt that nothing was carried on from BF4/BF3, and based on what I tried in game and saw on Symthic there definetly is a connection.
Also I know many of you are sighing or miffed at this, but what else did you expect them to say after community giving them nothing but a middle finger for almost half a year? Doesn't change any facts no, but geez...

Edit: Just to stress my point: Can we pleeeease stop shouting at Visc all the time? If you want somebody to shout at then blame EA. By _constantly_ shouting at devs won't make their days any better and certainly will not make them work any better.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

DeathOfTheDodo

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25

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 9:41am

Yes because there's a reason to use the M1911 with what, 50-15 with a 6m drop off start. Dropping from 2 BTK to like 5 in a few meters makes no goddamned sense. Same with the PDWs. Yeah, they shouldn't be good at long range, but hitting a massive BTK change wall over a few meters isn't consistent for players or how physics works. 9mm rounds don't just turn into marshmallows at a set distance, the effectiveness drops off gradually.
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No.

Zer0Cod3x

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26

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 10:09am

What about attachments? After reading NoctyrneSAGA's post I can understand how Visceral might be trying to balance their weapons. But some attachments completely dunk on this balance. For example:

Compensator - this pretty much renders high recoil useless as a balancing factor. M16 and M416 are supposed to be hard to control, but reducing the V-Rec by 40% just by sticking this on makes them rather easy to control. I'm aware of the H-Rec penalty, but I don't think it's high enough to stop me from using it.

Stubby stock - yes, I know it might not work the way it suggests, but if it does, it's absolutely broken.

Muzzle brake - this is the comp for H-Rec. Except it has no downsides.

I think these need to be addressed as well as I think they're just too good.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 10:14am

@Miffyli do your funny tools work in Hardline?

The recoil/spread one? Yeah I patched that for BFH a while ago if I remember correctly.
In that case it would be fairly easy to verify whether assumptions about gunsway parameters are actually correct.
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Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"

ToTheSun!

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 10:26am

Just to stress my point: Can we pleeeease stop shouting at Visc all the time? If you want somebody to shout at then blame EA. By _constantly_ shouting at devs won't make their days any better and certainly will not make them work any better.

This is true.

What is also true is that Zachulon, at the end of the day, is just doing his job, for better or worse. Lastly, i don't question his commitment and love for the game.

However, it's pretty vexing to listen to a dev say "0.9 SIPS is intended" to save face after a screw-up (because there's no way you can justify a 800%+ delta with "code uses data differently from BF4"), and even i think it's silly, despite not playing Hardline. I was genuinely going to pick up the game eventually during a price drop or something, but after hearing user reports on balance, i'm not sure i want to, especially after reading a dev commenting that balance mishaps are feature, not error.

NoctyrneSAGA

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29

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 10:26am

It is because Hardline isn't driven by formulas but mostly by what they seem to want each weapon to do.
I can see how this makes more sense to them. So they could be simply going for "we want this gun to do X" while completely ignoring how strong weapons are relative to each other...or maybe relative power is just super low priority for them. True balance is screwed in that case.


Care to give an example of this?

Looking at the Operator weapons, they seem to be well aware of weapons that are close to each other in performance and still manage to slightly differentiate them.

Yes because there's a reason to use the M1911 with what, 50-15 with a 6m drop off start. Dropping from 2 BTK to like 5 in a few meters makes no goddamned sense. Same with the PDWs. Yeah, they shouldn't be good at long range, but hitting a massive BTK change wall over a few meters isn't consistent for players or how physics works. 9mm rounds don't just turn into marshmallows at a set distance, the effectiveness drops off gradually.


Hardline's steep drop off is due to the "smaller" maps. It's the only way for damage drop off to matter in their eyes. Also, the M1911 is one of the higher damage model pistols at 55 damage now. They use this to strong CQB damage to justify steep drop off as well.

i'm not sure i want to, especially after reading a dev commenting that balance mishaps are feature, not error.


Zachulon said that he had never once touched the K10 until the 2nd Beta. That K10 fired at 1200 RPM and was a 3 shot kill at CQB. That is a TTK of 100ms.

But some attachments completely dunk on this balance. For example:


That is kind of the trouble of having a standardized set of attachments on a set of weapons that were uniquely tailored. But BF4 is similar in that respect as well. For every weapon, there is pretty much one set-up that will guarantee highest accuracy. Hardline's attachment modifiers are extremely strong but I think we also need to rethink what constitutes good attachment balance for Hardline as well.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Jun 30th 2015, 10:35am)


Sheepnub

I pity the wool

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30

Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 11:08am

Edit: Just to stress my point: Can we pleeeease stop shouting at Visc all the time? If you want somebody to shout at then blame EA. By _constantly_ shouting at devs won't make their days any better and certainly will not make them work any better.

^This

We get it. The guy talked about us and our work in a less-than-friendly way. But he also gave us quite a few hints about our work being possibly incomplete. Let's actually use that to our advantage, rather than talk badly about the developers.
Besides, it's not like the devs are there purely to screw us over and go for the munnies. That's EA's job. The devs are just doing what they love to do, making a game.

The last thing we want to do is slowly take away that passion from them by replacing it with spite...
"I put aside a few sceptics, the types of decency in the history of philosophy: the rest haven't the slightest conception of intellectual integrity."
Friedrich Nietzsche


Best of epic quotes :D

Spoiler Spoiler

Just realized it's 4/20 tomorrow


Thanks for the heads up!
*Logs out of Symthic in preparation*

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

>littlebird passanger, semi-auto frag rounds
>gunship OP

Meanwhile at DICE-headquarters during BF4's release:

I'm pretty sure there's a massive post-it on every desk "DON'T FUCKING TOUCH ANYTHING THAT IS ACTUALLY DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE DOING"

UCAV:
"Hey guys remember how stupid prenerf mav was?"

"Lets add c4 to it."

The World Champion went to China once.

They called me a Gweilo.

So I kicked a big fucking hole in their wall and let all the Mongolians in.

just thought I'd share.


The thought of Assaults running out of ACE 23 rounds mid firefight, Engineers facing the rear of an unaware MBT with no rockets left, Recons unable to...Whatever the fuck they do. These are the things that keep me up at night ;(


About hunturk:
I don't know what's funnier, the video itself of the fact that an unlisted video has more views than most of your normal videos :P

...


You just live to hit people upside the noggin with a Math Bomb, don't you?

[context] Maybe it's the UK's overly aggressive porn filter at work. After all, it does have the word "monkey" in it and monkeys have been known to have sex so...


Previously, at DICE HQ:
"Ok guys, the password is "epic dream worlds"; everyone take a letter and do your best to turn it into into something random that we can put into a picture!"


I assume a functional game (BF4) also.

Aww!
*pinches cheeks*
So cute!


But but but

He's a Youtuber ;(

There's no way he doesn't know what he's talking about