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Oscar

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 3:16am

I'd make an elaborate post, but I'll just rep Sun and add:
"I don't even"

brb lurking that BL thread
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I find majority of the complaints I hear about this game somehow never appear in my games.

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 3:16am

Wat. I can't even form a proper response yet.

Who has fun, wins.

ToTheSun!

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 3:16am

So for e.g. 0.4 vREC doesn't actually translate to 0.4 vRec ingame? Is that what he's saying?

It seems to me that he's either just saving Visceral face or way out of his depth.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 3:26am

Before everyone whips out their pitchforks, keep in mind that Zachulon comes from a position different from ours.

He is well-acquainted with the inner workings of the game while we are not. He can talk directly to the designers and programmers. Can we? No.

It is very true that we actually have no real idea about the context of the values and as things are right now, the BFH section really is just a data dump.

For all we know, there could be a shit ton of other modifiers at work. We don't know.



This is not to say that Zachulon is 100% correct, just that we should not be circlejerking over his response to marbleduck who I feel is equally responsible for a rather unprofessional and uncivilized approach to the matter.

"I'll post criticism for BFH while showing footage for BF4 because I think the game is shit" is a rather alarming statement.



Even if Zachulon is lying or misinformed, that is not a legitimate reason to start a circlejerk or shitstorm.

In fact, both parties should remain civilized and professional through the entire exchange.



It is also why I feel this thread should be in Off-Topic or not exist at all.

What is there really to discuss? There is actually nothing here to discuss.

This is just a circlejerk thread and I am actually sad that it gained traction here.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Jun 30th 2015, 3:37am)


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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 3:26am

@Miffyli do your funny tools work in Hardline?
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Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 3:44am

Before everyone whips out their pitchforks, keep in mind that Zachulon comes from a position different from ours.

He is well-acquainted with the inner workings of the game while we are not. He can talk directly to the designers and programmers. Can we? No.


"Confused" is a far more applicable word than "angry" here, but what's his position at Visceral? Because even among LA's CTE team it's fairly apparent that James/pixels is really the only one who understands the details of the weapon balance and such, with maybe Julian/jjju having reasonable knowledge being an engineer.

But David/tiggr certainly doesn't know any of the sort of detailed stuff we talk about, and that the game is actually balanced around. This isn't a complaint at all, his job is to oversee and makes sure, at the end of the day, the game plays well, that it feels good, and he does that well. Because of this, he knows better than to engage in discussions/debates on the finer points of things like weapon balance, because he's not an expert, something I applaud him for not doing.

Going by what I'm seeing here, it looks like this particular guy is not their weapon expert, so while I can't fault him for trying to defend his game, he may be stepping into water that's a little too deep.


On a semi-related tangent I don't want to make a thread for, the recent CTE patch blocked all projectiles from penetrating vehicle glass, with the exception of "Snipers, DMRs, and .50 cals". I asked David whether this included Hand Cannons, as .357s and .44s are usually included in this set of "powerful" weapons (destroying mines, etc), and he said he didn't know and to ask his weapon designer. As they're on holidays now, do you guys know?
Who has fun, wins.

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 3:56am

Before everyone whips out their pitchforks, keep in mind that Zachulon comes from a position different from ours.

He is well-acquainted with the inner workings of the game while we are not. He can talk directly to the designers and programmers. Can we? No.


"Confused" is a far more applicable word than "angry" here, but what's his position at Visceral? Because even among LA's CTE team it's fairly apparent that James/pixels is really the only one who understands the details of the weapon balance and such, with maybe Julian/jjju having reasonable knowledge being an engineer.

But David/tiggr certainly doesn't know any of the sort of detailed stuff we talk about, and that the game is actually balanced around. This isn't a complaint at all, his job is to oversee and makes sure, at the end of the day, the game plays well, that it feels good, and he does that well. Because of this, he knows better than to engage in discussions/debates on the finer points of things like weapon balance, because he's not an expert, something I applaud him for not doing.

Going by what I'm seeing here, it looks like this particular guy is not their weapon expert, so while I can't fault him for trying to defend his game, he may be stepping into water that's a little too deep.


On a semi-related tangent I don't want to make a thread for, the recent CTE patch blocked all projectiles from penetrating vehicle glass, with the exception of "Snipers, DMRs, and .50 cals". I asked David whether this included Hand Cannons, as .357s and .44s are usually included in this set of "powerful" weapons (destroying mines, etc), and he said he didn't know and to ask his weapon designer. As they're on holidays now, do you guys know?


Zachulon's job is basically a blend of community manager and producer as far as I can tell. He is Visceral's equivalent of t1gge.

You can tell how much he likes Hardline whenever he goes on a DRMB podcast. I would be very surprised if he was not frequently in touch with his designers. But that still wouldn't justify childish behavior like what marbleduck has exhibited. You do not simply get "the right" to give up on a game just because you don't think your ideas are getting heard. Zachulon has guaranteed live that he reads every bit of feedback and watches every video. This thread has made it obvious that Zachulon is now paying attention to marble and he probably could have chosen a better video to start off with.

While he has said some rather embarassing things at times, there is no reason that we should lynch him for it. The posts that Xuvial just linked where Zachulon addresses another users questions/criticisms regarding balance. You think Zachulon came up with those by himself? I doubt it. I'm fairly certain that a gameplay designer at some point had to explain their decisions to Zachulon. He's simply restating the design rationale that he heard. AFAIK, it is the same procedure with undeadpixels and t1gge. Ask nicely and wait patiently. If there is no response, try again. And keep trying. That is the position the players are in. We do not simply vent aggression or confusion at the developers. This is a lesson everyone should have learned on BF4 launch. The more you yell at the devs, the less likely they are to listen or talk back. The players are only hurting themselves if they don't have thick skin.

The secrecy around the data might just be due to the gameplay dude at Visceral just being secretive. Not because Zachulon has no idea what's going on.



At the end of the day, we don't know. And as the ones that don't know, our job is to listen.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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  • "Xuvial" started this thread

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 4:18am

At the end of the day, we don't know. And as the ones that don't know, our job is to listen.
Well I guess at the end of the day he made it extremely clear that Hardline balance is heavily driven by feelings. The weapon designer probably just plays the console version decides "hmm this feels strong, that feels weak" etc and then nudges the numbers up or down based on those feelings.

Look at the bulk of Zach's response - "you don't play the game", "this has more recoil", "this has less recoil"...and that's pretty much his entire post. Either he has no clue what spread and damage models/drop-off are, OR he's heard of the concept but doesn't want to bring it up due to lacking sufficient knowledge on that front.

Anyone feel like (politely) asking him about Hardline's crazy spread/SIPS and inconsistent damage models?

But there's a high chance we'll just get another response about using Symthic's incomplete information and focusing too much on the numbers. By calling the data incomplete, Zach pretty much ensured the ONLY way to discuss anything with him is to use opinions/feelings from gameplay. Such a subjective argument will never get anywhere because he'll simply respond with utterly vague and generic "this has more recoil" "this is better at close range" fluff statements. Not a single quantifiable/factual value will ever be mentioned.

He's a clever bastard, I'll give him that :rolleyes:

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Xuvial" (Jun 30th 2015, 4:25am)


NoctyrneSAGA

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 5:17am

By calling the data incomplete, Zach pretty much ensured the ONLY way to discuss anything with him is to use opinions/feelings from gameplay. Such a subjective argument will never get anywhere because he'll simply respond with utterly vague and generic "this has more recoil" "this is better at close range" fluff statements. Not a single quantifiable/factual value will ever be mentioned.


Our understanding of BFH's inner workings is incomplete though.

Like I said, he isn't 100% right. There are things that obviously need work like Stock + Stubby/Potato.

There are things that are laughable like saying the K10's 1200 RPM 4 shot kill is not a TTK of 150ms. It is at 0m.


He seems to know well enough about damage drop-off to address the 410 Jury, shotguns, sniper rifles, and SMGs. In fact, given Hardline's frequency for close range action, the damage drop-off needs to be steep if they want it to matter in CQB. The rationale here makes sense while the specific values are still up for debate.

He knows well enough about spread to talk about the Mac-10.

In fact, I am rather surprised you don't recognize what he is saying here.

He mentions recoil A LOT when talking about the guns. "Carbines have less recoil but do less damage" and "SMGs have less damage and less recoil" and "The new Battle Rifles have more recoil" and "Bald Eagle does tons of damage but has tons of recoil" all scream something out to me.

It is the so-called "skill-based" shooter revolving around recoil. The easier it is to use, the less damage it does.




The problem in these instances is rationale and not our lack of knowledge of the game.

So far, Zachulon is simply saying Symthic does not know enough about how BFH uses the data which is true.

However, unless there is some serious behind the scenes work, intuitively obvious things like damage drop-off and TTK should be open to discussion.

The end result is that Zachulon is right.

Hardline is different from BF4 and it doesn't want to be BF4.



Rather than go for formulaic balance, it seems Hardline is balanced mostly through in-game testing.

This by itself is not a bad thing.

Masahiro Sakurai does this for Smash Bros. He sits down with every character and tweaks their values solely through playtesting which is kind of the only way to approach a game like Smash. In fact, he does so much testing that he is suffering from tendonitis and calcification in both arms IIRC. That is dedication.

It seems to me that Hardline is going the route of giving each weapon its own personality rather than going through the procedure that BF4 has.

While BF4 guarantees good balance efficiently, it would not be wrong to say that it is simplistic because it is. That is how it guarantees good balance

For any given rate of fire, it is pretty much already known what the recoil will be, what the muzzle velocity will be, what SIPS/SDEC will be, etc. BF4 is good at generating weapons that will function within expectations if you look exclusively at ROF.

BFH is choosing to go about the problem by making weapons unique while trying to maintain balance. Just look at the Syndicate weapons. They are extreme outliers that are mostly special one way or another.

Hardline definitely can be balanced the way Sakurai does it. The question is time.



That is not to say that formulaic balance wouldn't work for BFH. Just that utilizing BF4 formulas and expecting them to work immediately in Hardline is a bad idea.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Jun 30th 2015, 5:26am)


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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 7:01am

It has nothing to do with being like BF4, and everything to do with actually having any semblance of logic or consistency within its own design. Hardline can try to be whatever it wants, but it still has to actually execute well.
Who has fun, wins.