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  • "Xuvial" started this thread

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 2:38am

Visceral responds to weapon balance (and to Symthic)

Visceral... wtf? - Forums - Battlelog
/ Battlefield Hardline


Note: Zachulon = Viceral dev, he's responding to MarbleDuck's weapon balance video: Visceral, Wat. BFH Criminal Activity Patch Review - BF4 Gameplay - YouTube

Quoted from "Zachulon"

Quoted from "Xuvial"

Quoted from "Zachulon"

I was trying to be nice by saying we'd consider the feedback, it's actually awfully misinformed. Whoever made the video has no understanding of how our weapons work.

Of course he has no understanding of how your weapons work. Nobody does. It'd be lovely if you actually EXPLAINED the strange (almost random) numbers used for weapon stats instead of just claiming that people don't "understand" your weapons.

But more on topic, please explain what is there to understand? Look at this:
BF: Hardline Weapon charts (Damage, accuracy, etc.) | Symthic

Hardline is doing absolutely nothing new compared to BF3 and BF4 in terms of weapon stat parameters. Vertical recoil, horizontal recoil, FSM, min spread, max spread, spread decrease, recoil decrease, muzzle velocity, reload times, damage models, stances....it's all there! All those things have been around since 2011 (BF3) and Hardline uses them no differently. You are using DICE's exact same weapon balance parameters, things that have already been heavily used and tweaked over several years.

So the only thing not making sense here are the values/numbers being used for those parameters...they don't make any sense logically nor mathematically. Random is truly the only word that describes Hardline's weapon balance right now.

Of course the end result is that every weapon category has 1-2 guns that make every other gun redundant. Or was that Visceral's goal?


I think you're way too focused on a bunch of numbers instead of how the guns actually feel in the game. Symthic is a nice website but all they're doing is pulling incomplete data from the game. They have no context or understanding of how that data is interpreted by the code. So when you say we're doing the exact same thing and using them no differently, you are speaking without the proper information.

Just because our data is organized the same way does not mean our code uses those values the same way. I disagree with your conclusion that our weapon balance is random. How would you know when you haven't played Hardline? You're just looking at some third party website with incomplete data and some random dude who makes a YouTube video with footage from another game? Come on now, lol. If you would like to talk about specific weapons and how they are balanced I would love to. You're going to have to actually play the game though.


Quoted from "Zachulon"

Alright, props for at least being somewhat specific and not just saying "gun balance is broken." I am going to reply to each of these with my thoughts/opinion, I am not trying to argue but I think people want this back and forth right? Let's address your points one at a time:

Quoted from "supernarfa"

Having put a number of hours into this game file me under someone who doesn't understand the balance at all in this.
-I don't get the SMG damage model having weapons that have a high damage model and a high ROF but drop off to nothing within 20 feet, making them impossible to use. Outside of touching distance. The high damage and the high ROF are redundant, to me. Trying to compensate with lag, armored insert, and random bullet spread, asking for a 10 hit kill at 30 feet is just ridiculous.


SMGs use a pistol caliber bullet so it's not going to carry as much damage as a rifle bullet. The role of the SMG is close range, it is not a long range gun. SMGs have less recoil and are easier to control because of this. The numbers you are using (20 feet, 30 feet) are exaggerated.

Quoted from "supernarfa"


-I still don't understand the use for the carbines, as their damage, damage drop off, and ROF is inferior across the board to the assault rifles.


The Carbines are easier to control and have less recoil than Assault rifles. Yes, they do slightly less damage but thatís the trade-off for the controllability. I know, youíre going to mention the M16 and M416 now. The M16 and M416 have more recoil and are harder to control than Carbines.

Quoted from "supernarfa"


-None of the side arm balance makes sense, unless the Syndicate weapons are intentionally supposed to be superior to the regular sidearms in every possible way.


This is too general, I donít want to list every sidearm here. I will talk about the Syndicate Sidearm thinking.
Mechanic: 410 Jury is a short range pistol that shoots a 410 shell. This makes it drastically different from the revolvers the Mechanic has but not better, it has an advantage in short range situations but the revolvers are better for long distances.
Operator: G17 has lower damage than most of the other Operator sidearms, the tradeoff is less recoil.
Enforcer: Bald Eagle does tons of damage but itís got tons of recoil, a low rate of fire and a small magazine.
Professional: Mac10. Tons of recoil and spread compared to the other Professional sidearms. Balancing it out is its High rate of fireÖ We are also nerfing it a bit in XP2.

Quoted from "supernarfa"


-The shotguns are useless besides spitting distance, out side of the double barrel, because if you don't get a one shot kill you're dead and they're too inconsistent to rely on that. The TTK in this is so low that there is no time to get off a second shot since they're all pump actions.


Shotgun is the best close range weapon, thatís its role. Itís not supposed to be good at range. Also, I disagree that you canít get a second shot off. Try the KSG12 or the SPAS and youíll have no trouble getting multiple shots off.

Quoted from "supernarfa"


-I don't understand the battle rifle balance, or why one faction gets easily the two best battle rifles (the FAL and the SA-58). When every gun has the exact same damage model, the only thing after that is RPM.


Those two rifles have the most recoil of all Battle Rifles. That, combined with the higher rate of fire, makes them the two most difficult to control Battle Rifles.

Quoted from "supernarfa"


-The sniper balance still does make sense, unless you think that the 308 magnum rounds for the two "heavy" bolt actions make up for a slower RPM, slower bullet speed, and lower mag size.


Youíre saying the Sniper Rifles are good or am I not understanding the statement? Yes, the slower bolt actions are able to one hit kill in a shorter range and carry damage over distance better.

Quoted from "supernarfa"


True balance, to me, would be looking at any gun and finding a use for it. And there are so many guns in this that I would never, ever pick up again because they have no niche, there is a gun that does something better in every possible way.


I think this point is less about just gun balance and more about how each gun relates to your personal preference and playstyle. One manís trash is another manís treasure.

Quoted from "supernarfa"


*quick edit* The low TTK in this entire game is, to me, just incredibly poorly thought out and I doubt you'll ever be able to justify that to my liking. Some of the weapons are so low as to be impossible for client and the server being able to communicate what is going on, leading to tons of one frame, instant (seeming) kills. Google tells me it takes 300-400ms to blink an eye, which is about double what it takes the majority of the weapons to kill you In this game up until 30-40m. I wonder if you play your own game sometimes.


Our game is not intended to have the same longer TTK that BF4 had. No one is getting killed in 150ms though, that's an exaggerated number for sure :)

I have played this game in development for countless hours. I have played over 110 hours of the retail game at home on my own time, about to hit Level 113 tonight. I really like the game and I play every night.

I do appreciate the feedback and passion for the game. Thanks for playing and actually using the guns rather than basing your feedback on a website with incomplete data or someone else's opinion on a YouTube video.

This post has been edited 16 times, last edit by "Xuvial" (Jun 30th 2015, 3:03am)


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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 2:48am

Link to source?

  • "Xuvial" started this thread

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 2:49am

Visceral... wtf? - Forums - Battlelog
/ Battlefield 4


The auto-formatting on this forum can FUCK OFF, seriously it is completely destroying my post and hyperlinking everything (or just removing stuff at random).
This is my 10th attempt to fix my post.

edit: ok it should be alright now

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Xuvial" (Jun 30th 2015, 2:55am)


Krolman

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 2:55am

"They" really don't like "us"
Apparently we do have a facebook... You should go ahead and like it

Oh look and a twitter... Yeah follow us there too pls

If only people would talk back it wouldn't be so lonely.[In B4 I get overwhelmed]


"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides, Bacchae

"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant."- Harlan Ellison



Things that I support


Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.


intel best ethernet controllers


ammo regen pls


TL;DR: all vehicles in BF4 are screwed up in some way or another.



I know I shouldn't be surprised that something like that even exists but.... 8|


You're just a spreadsheet baddie.




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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 2:57am

"They" really don't like "us"

I interviewed some guy from Visceral last year and he was pretty friendly and excited, so the quotes in this thread feel weird to me.

ToTheSun!

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 3:04am

This is why Hardline is such a shit game. The devs don't understand their own game.

Krolman

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 3:05am

last year

Key word, I'm guess after "we" showed the world how things are balanced and how little sense they made people started trumpeting and Viseral don't like how that what a Fairly credit website that has work on their predecessors with great success and noted credit from devs in both Dice LA and Stockholm, was spreading the truth rather saying things like it's how it feels when if it weren't for number you wouldn't have a Game.


" Symthic is a nice website but all they're doing is pulling incomplete data from the game."-Visceral... wtf? page 2/2 - Forums - Battlelog
/ Battlefield 4



Maybe cause the game is incomplete since i bet "we" can pull even ass hairs from textures.


I bet that they *censored* *censored* how we are *censored* *censored* *censored* and are just butt hurt.
Apparently we do have a facebook... You should go ahead and like it

Oh look and a twitter... Yeah follow us there too pls

If only people would talk back it wouldn't be so lonely.[In B4 I get overwhelmed]


"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides, Bacchae

"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant."- Harlan Ellison



Things that I support


Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.


intel best ethernet controllers


ammo regen pls


TL;DR: all vehicles in BF4 are screwed up in some way or another.



I know I shouldn't be surprised that something like that even exists but.... 8|


You're just a spreadsheet baddie.



This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Krolman" (Jun 30th 2015, 3:12am)


  • "Xuvial" started this thread

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 3:06am

I'm more interested by what he means by "how that data is interpreted by the code". Is he implying the game code does something extra to weapon stats or interprets it to a different effect?

So for e.g. 0.4 vREC doesn't actually translate to 0.4 vRec ingame? Is that what he's saying?

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 3:14am

I'm more interested by what he means by "how that data is interpreted by the code".


it's one of those statements that are hard to prove/disprove. he's basically claiming that the game engine uses those values differently than what we'd think. IE, differently than BF3/4. or in other words, he's basically claiming that we don't know what we're talking about.

funny part is, we can test this relatively easily ingame, by just manipulating the values and using the tried and true "shooting at the walls" technique. however, this method is also pretty tedious.

also keep in mind, years ago a DICE dev claimed that the game engine does not support the physics necessary to do barrel rolls and standing loops in helicopters. a symthic member (lyraandbonbon) proved that statement wrong.

Pastafarianism

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Tuesday, June 30th 2015, 3:14am

I'm internally screaming rn

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