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  • "Veritable" started this thread

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71

Sunday, June 7th 2015, 7:03pm

I can't agrue with the numbers I guess, but my personal experiences just don't match up.

I'm not too worried about it. You can see the graph bars being so close, there is no one attachment combo that stands out or completely ruins the gun. If you look at the actual numbers in the Google Sheets, ~1.2% separate all proper Barrel (Comp, HBar, MB) and Underbarrel (AFG, Ergo, Stubby) combinations.

As for AFG vs. Stubby, it comes down to how long you want to shoot. Shoot shorter bursts, and you feel the FSM more often and thus AFG will be more meaningful. Shoot longer bursts, and the Stubby keeps the SIPS in check. The A-91 in particular has lower FSM that its RPM might suggest it ought to have, while it has the proper SIPS value assigned to its 800RPM RoF.

You can see that by using the Weapon Charts here and list Carbines by their RoF and look at the FSM values going down. 2.6 -> 2.5 -> 2.3 -> 2.0 -> 2.4 -> 2.25 -> 2.1.

As for Comp vs. MB, its 0.7 H-Recoil spread is just at the tipping point for Comp accuracy to take over. Guns with higher H-Recoil that I looked at, Comp > MB easily. Guns with less, MB > Comp as the negligible increase in accuracy do not outweigh the ease-of-use. This is where A-91 is a slight outlier again for its V-Recoil vs. RPM: going down, you see 830RPM -> 700RPM -> 800RPM -> 650RPM -> 680RPM. Hence its responding better to the MB than the Comp in this study, but again not by much.

Of course, in the end it is actual performance in your hands that matter, and since I have all but 8 kills with it (in a single round! at at Naval Strike map no less! ~20% accuracy though!) I will defer to you. Just wanted to explain how this list arrived at its numbers, though!

Pastafarianism

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72

Sunday, June 7th 2015, 7:27pm


406 kills, #6 weapon. I'm actually surprised I don't have my mastery with it (I'll get on that next time I can play).

The MB probably doesn't help it that much is my point, considering it's mere .30 vertical recoil. It does, however, have a crazy horizontal recoil. If my thoughts are correct, using it with compensator and stubby should be best for moderate size bursting (3-6 shots), while HBar and stubby should be magdump king. Personally, I prefer the former combo, as one of the main of the A-91 is it's amazingly controllable V-recoil.
@Zer0Cod3x
BTW I JUST FUCKING WATCHED THAT VIDEO FROM FOREVER BACK ON RUSSIAN BULLPUPS

I LAUGHED. THEN I CRIED. But hey. At least the Groza-4 is good

Symthic's Friendly Neighborhood Pastafarian


Master of nothing, mediocre at everything... except dropping ammo boxes. I do that like it's my fucking job.
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You're into Chinese nowadays?
No, but i am into immature jokes about sexual intercourse with cats with a pinch of stereotypical asian accent. :D

Thanks razal.

I don't even have a big neck.

I didn't know vertigo could disrupt one's sense of size.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Pastafarianism" (Jun 7th 2015, 7:33pm)


CobaltRose

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73

Sunday, June 7th 2015, 7:34pm

You will be glad to note that your beloved A-91 is no longer last :D That is mostly because the Groza-1 is so much worse ;(
not surprised. So much DPS, but so much recoil and so little versatility :(
Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?

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What can't be changed can be banned.

I'm completely serious. Well, seriously insane actually :P

If only more people left the wheel chair, adjustable hospital bed, and crutches behind and played HC. (aka Regen, Minimap, Killcam)

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I can't look at my own avatar without having to pee. GG Me. GG.

I swear to god if you reply with a picture of the AEK I'll mail you a buttplug shaped like one.

The one time when "it's only three inches" is a good thing.

How do you guys control your FAMAS burst length since it fires its mag in just 1,5 seconds))
I consider each magazine a burst. :/

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Zer0Cod3x

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74

Monday, June 8th 2015, 3:28am

At least the Groza-4 is good

The reload is horrendous though. 2.9 secs + 21 round mag? Jeez that's tough. I've got about 100 kills with it and even though it's more accurate than the AK5C, it just doesn't have the mag size to go past 50m or so. I've probably been killed more times on its reload than while in a 1v1 with someone. Just a question, stubby or ergo on it? ATM I'm using stubby for more long range potential.

And I haven't yet used it with a PSO-4, but that's coming up soon :D

A-91 still sucks in my mind though. But looks cool. But still is quite mediocre.

@Veritable

I can't see some of the charts you put up for some reason.

http://i.imgur.com/B7NA5kF.png
http://i.imgur.com/jCHoxas.png

Did you use another website or something?
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Zer0Cod3x" (Jun 8th 2015, 3:34am)


  • "Veritable" started this thread

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75

Monday, June 8th 2015, 4:23am

I can't see some of the charts you put up for some reason.

Yeah sorry, I've made a few changes to how I score things and how the charts are drawn, so I deleted all the outdated ones. The ones in the Original Post are current, and are showing okay.

Here is the Groza-4 one, which I just uploaded for you, if that is what you are looking for:


It's got PDW hipfire and ADS - Moving, so do you REALLY need Ergo? I dunno, but it is the only gun left in the game that I looked at, that will grant you exactly 1.0 FSM if you use the AFG.

As for Stubby, it's already got 700RPM-SIPS value and then it's got a permanent HBar to reduce that further.

My vote goes to AFG, but then again I have not used it AT ALL so this is all very theoretical.

-----added-----

PS I saw you trying to reply to Lvlcap's video that says the Groza-4 is trash. Good luck with that :P

My personal take on its stats is... if it were a Carbine, I'd use the hell out of it. Yes, it is good enough for me to ditch 2 years worth of and ~12k kills of DMRs exclusivity. Even the Velocity does not deter me, as I've been using Suppressors for so long I'm used to it.

Groza-1, on the other hand, is um... well....

Zer0Cod3x

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76

Monday, June 8th 2015, 5:02am

Well, it's got very controllable recoil already, so I felt angled wasn't really needed. It's got good 700 RPM spread stats, so stubby really isn't needed. It's got good moving accuracy, being a PDW and bullpup, so ergo really isn't needed. And since it's already got good 700 RPM SDEC of 12.7, it's fine to use a grip on it, which means no grip really isn't needed.

So... ?(
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


  • "Veritable" started this thread

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77

Monday, June 8th 2015, 5:23am

it's already got good 700 RPM SDEC of 12.7, it's fine to use a grip on it, which means no grip really isn't needed.

Use AFG and mid-range scopes, aim at target's head at 50m+ away, fire and pull straight down, get double and possibly even triple headshots.

For all other guns without ~1.0 FSM, if you do the same, you either miss high and do no damage, or you pull down too much and get chest hits.

While "researching" for this and before Spring Patch hit, I tried it out with the Ak5C + HBar + AFG, and it was exactly like that: double-headshots galore.

-----

Maybe I should be more fair to the Groza-1. It has an average rank of 4.5 in terms of 10m to 50m damage. However, if we include Useability, its ranking drops to 6th.

It is absolutely terri-bad at any sort of ranged ADS - Not Moving engagements, but that is not its biggest problem.

Its biggest problem is that, even at close range, despite the damage model differences, the Groza-4 beats it handily, even if only looking at damage output. At long range then the gap actually widens... I have it ranked BEHIND the MTAR-21 at range. That's... not good.

Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

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78

Monday, June 8th 2015, 6:30am

Its biggest problem is that, even at close range, despite the damage model differences, the Groza-4 beats it handily, even if only looking at damage output. At long range then the gap actually widens... I have it ranked BEHIND the MTAR-21 at range. That's... not good.

I really don't get how the Groza-1 is that bad. Honestly. I haven't used it anywhere but the test range and I know it's got ludicrous V-Rec, but its DPS is very high and accuracy is not the worst (looking at you, MTAR).

Use AFG and mid-range scopes, aim at target's head at 50m+ away, fire and pull straight down, get double and possibly even triple headshots.

Still not convinced with the angled grip, but maybe I'll give it a try. Mid range scope though? How much more screen space do I lose?
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


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79

Monday, June 8th 2015, 11:02pm

Based on the new stats, I've been running the SG553 HB/Ergo as my new all kit replacement for the ACW-R (I generally went ACW-R - AK5C - M39 before). Very happy with it so far, takes a little taming, but seems solid.

Managed to speed peek on several Bipod campers.

Anyone been toughing out the ACW-R regardless?

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80

Sunday, June 21st 2015, 10:18pm

I see no Veritable's pics in the topic. Just no-entry sign((