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51

Sunday, May 10th 2015, 9:02pm

>50m nothing comes close to the QBU. Inside of that it's good but fails because of needing to kill multiple people.

It's glaring weaknesses are bullet count and reload time. From experience it will almost always have 10 bullets not 11 because I only expect to kill 2 people per magazine using 3-5 bullets each anyway. Even at that half my time is spent reloading.

Bullets in magazine count / burst size might scale that weakness correctly (especially truncated ie: 3.3= 3.) Would probably boost MG4 a lot but that bullet count does matter.

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52

Sunday, May 10th 2015, 10:03pm

Currently, it is 1 part V-Recoil (best in study = 100 and goes down by percentage) + 1 part FSM (equals 1.0 = 100) + 1 part H-Recoil (0 compensation = 100) + 1 part Reload ( [average bullet damage * magazine size] / reload times = best is 100) + 1 part Velocity (highest bullet speed = 100).

I don't think this really represents usability that well (apparently "usability" doesn't have an "e"). There are some parts which aren't as important as others yet you've kinda assumed they're all as important as each other. For me this is the usability scale that I would take into account:

H-Rec = V-Rec > FSM > reload > velocity.

Otherwise I think making all these factors as important as each other is unfair to some guns. e.g. The QBZ is very VERY controllable, but the long reload time would drag its usability down when I would consider it extremely usable. Or what about the SG553? It has pretty decent recoil values and reload for its fire rate yet its low muzzle velocity lets it down. Maybe take this into consideration?


The problem is that this weighted formula will vary per person. For example, I handle V-Recoil without much issue. My most used gun is a SCAR that I shoot 22-28% with using HBar+Ergo or HBar+Fangled for longer ranges. So that formula for me looks more like H-Rec > FSM > Reload > V-Rec > velocity. I'm sure platform changes things too. Console players will probably rate V-recoil higher than PC players, due to harder compensation with a controller.

ViperFTW

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53

Sunday, May 10th 2015, 11:08pm

Currently, it is 1 part V-Recoil (best in study = 100 and goes down by percentage) + 1 part FSM (equals 1.0 = 100) + 1 part H-Recoil (0 compensation = 100) + 1 part Reload ( [average bullet damage * magazine size] / reload times = best is 100) + 1 part Velocity (highest bullet speed = 100).

I don't think this really represents usability that well (apparently "usability" doesn't have an "e"). There are some parts which aren't as important as others yet you've kinda assumed they're all as important as each other. For me this is the usability scale that I would take into account:

H-Rec = V-Rec > FSM > reload > velocity.

Otherwise I think making all these factors as important as each other is unfair to some guns. e.g. The QBZ is very VERY controllable, but the long reload time would drag its usability down when I would consider it extremely usable. Or what about the SG553? It has pretty decent recoil values and reload for its fire rate yet its low muzzle velocity lets it down. Maybe take this into consideration?


The problem is that this weighted formula will vary per person. For example, I handle V-Recoil without much issue. My most used gun is a SCAR that I shoot 22-28% with using HBar+Ergo or HBar+Fangled for longer ranges. So that formula for me looks more like H-Rec > FSM > Reload > V-Rec > velocity. I'm sure platform changes things too. Console players will probably rate V-recoil higher than PC players, due to harder compensation with a controller.


Honestly, I think this serves its purpose quite well. Very well in fact, considering how difficult 'ease of use' is to quantify!
I highly doubt its meant to give a definitive answer to the question because, as you've so correctly put (and quite a few others have in fact), of how subjective 'ease of use' is.

I'd say: Use it under some level of advisement similar to the famous Hitrater, a calculator that also does not take things such as the user's recoil compensation into account but again serves a pretty fucking important purpose.

Again: Very well done to Veritable :thumbup:

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54

Sunday, May 10th 2015, 11:08pm

I dunno how Google Sheets handle you guys viewing the spreadsheet while I am mucking about with it, but I mucked about with it all morning and I just cannot reasonably punish HBar's base spread buff + SIPS buff and Ergo's Hipfire and moving spread buff enough to cancel out the V-Recoil and FSM penalties. It's either going to be HBar + Ergo on top or MB + AFG, I'm afraid, and both of them are "wrong."

It might be easier to leave things be and just apply some common sense when doing recommendations? *shrugs*

@AndrewPast

I will get the SCAR-H Assault done up later tonight. If nothing else the Hitrater scores will probably help you.

Pastafarianism

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55

Sunday, May 10th 2015, 11:23pm

SCAR is not gonna do well. High recoil, low ROF, small mag, and low velocity are going to punish it too much. The damage output won't make up for it. The reload might help though, but I'm gonna assume it's gonna do poorly.
Also, there is truth to the platform differences having an effect on the importance of different usability variables. I can say I have immense difficulty with recoil, particularly on semi-autos and high ROF weapons. I also need a low FSM, personally. However, mag size and reload aren't as important to me, as long as they aren't TOO punishing (QBU-88 is pushing my limits, but even then, it's my highest kill DMR) and velocity isn't a big deal except for snipers because of the nature of console players usually engaging at closer ranges.

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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Pastafarianism" (May 10th 2015, 11:30pm)


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56

Monday, May 11th 2015, 12:45am

SCAR is not gonna do well. High recoil, low ROF, small mag, and low velocity are going to punish it too much. The damage output won't make up for it. The reload might help though, but I'm gonna assume it's gonna do poorly.
Also, there is truth to the platform differences having an effect on the importance of different usability variables. I can say I have immense difficulty with recoil, particularly on semi-autos and high ROF weapons. I also need a low FSM, personally. However, mag size and reload aren't as important to me, as long as they aren't TOO punishing (QBU-88 is pushing my limits, but even then, it's my highest kill DMR) and velocity isn't a big deal except for snipers because of the nature of console players usually engaging at closer ranges.

The mag count isn't that big of a detriment when you consider the total damage per magazine for the SCAR is equivalent of a 29 round magazine of a 5.56 AR. The only stat I'm worried about is the velocity affecting the score.

  • "Veritable" started this thread

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57

Monday, May 11th 2015, 2:45am

@Pastafarianism

Yeah, I'm not too sure about that. As AndrewPast said, it has very short reload times (best in the game, basically) and then it puts in bullets that tend to do more damage.

BTW my personal Useability ranking has FSM at #1 (I can deal with high V-Recoil by aiming lower but once FSM kicks my aiming point above the target then I struggle to bring it back down unless I just stop shooting), then Velocity (since I aim lower then odds are with slow velocity + bad gravity I end up killing ants at their feet; I also suck at deflection shooting; finally I swear high velocity has better hit registration, as it feels like tied TTK goes to the faster guy).

Anecdotal but telling, my suppressed DMR accuracy is usually in the 20s, Mk11 maybe reaching 30%. M39 HBar I end up at high 30s, despite its 0.6 H-Recoil. It's something, for sure.

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58

Monday, May 11th 2015, 6:23am

Yet another tweak: Moved Velocity to modify each of the 6 Damage scores. This way, each Bar on the graph has 3 components, so the weighing scale will match each other.

The components are:

Useability
  1. Reload
  2. Recoil - V-Recoil 3x and H-Recoil 1x
  3. FSM


Move Damage
  1. 10m Hipfire + Velocity
  2. 25m ADS - Moving + Velocity
  3. 50m ADS - Moving + Velocity


Still Damage
  1. 50m ADS - Not Moving+ Velocity
  2. 75m ADS - Not Moving + Velocity
  3. 100m ADS - Not Moving + Velocity


*edit 2* Decided that "average bullet damage loaded per second" is ridiculous for Reload Score, so changed back to Magazine Size / Reload Time. The former way made DMRs way too good, due to similar magazine sizes as Assault Rifles / Carbines and yet gaining so much potential damage per reload event.

@AndrewPast

Here is the SCAR-H Assault graph:


Recommend HBar + AFG because the FSM with AFG is so good. You lose 5.98% of damage vs. Ergo, but gain ~18% in Useability thanks to FSM. If we take Velocity out of the equation, it pretty much out-damages everybody at pretty much all ranges, surprisingly even DMRs at long range. That is, if you can line up the zig-zagging target at 100m with your 5 rounds burst... how much leading do you have to do? Must be quite a bit.

Reload ended up being just above average, mostly due to the SCAR-H SV being even quicker, with the same magazine size and with much more damaging "bullets."

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Veritable" (May 11th 2015, 7:28am)


Zer0Cod3x

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59

Monday, May 11th 2015, 12:09pm

I'm sure platform changes things too. Console players will probably rate V-recoil higher than PC players, due to harder compensation with a controller.

Why do PC players say this? WHY????? WHO KEEPS PERPETUATING THIS? It's not true. Console players just shoot differently (IMO and from the numerous console players I've talked to). It's not the compensation that's difficult (for most people), it's the initial ADS snap to target that's "harder" with a controller, which console players don't bother to learn due to aim assist being there. I blame people like LevelCap who seem to think this.

Also, there is truth to the platform differences having an effect on the importance of different usability variables. I can say I have immense difficulty with recoil, particularly on semi-autos and high ROF weapons. I also need a low FSM, personally.

I'm kinda the opposite, I'm absolutely fine with recoil and aiming, so much so that about a month ago I turned off my aim assist and can still manage a 2 KD for most games (not to boast, just putting out a point). However, I do have to say that console players tend to tapfire a lot more than on PC, meaning a lower FSM is quite good on console. I do have to admit that I can use things like a HB on the AEK and SCAR-H, I'm just too lazy most days to compensate.

Back on topic, usability is the most subjective out of all the categories and obviously changes from person to person. But I think for the majority people recoil is the most subjective part of usability, and the ability to compensate for it varies greatly from person to person, and thus the recommended attachments also vary. So I'd say add in an optimal set of attachments for differing levels of recoil control.

So... how about one set of attachments for a person who can control >5.5 degrees of V-Rec per second at 50m, one for 5.5-7 degrees of V-Rec per second at 50m, one for 7-8.5 degrees at 50m, and another for 8.5+. This way the HB + ergo won't come out on top for every single gun.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Zer0Cod3x" (May 11th 2015, 12:55pm)


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60

Monday, May 11th 2015, 12:52pm

I wish I could find Rezals formula again on how he decides which Attachments to choose.

He said sth like: 1. run Hitrater 2. If *_formula_* < 0.3 then use HB 3. If *_formula_* > 0.33 then use AFG

And the formula consists at least of ROF and Recoil, but I cant remember it exactly any more.

@Rezal

Would you be so nice and post these formulas again, please ? I just cant find them through Symthic-search (or I am just too blind)

I can think of a Recoil-threshold, which shouldnt be exceeded and the lesser the better, like an exponential approach!

I would account this into the useability score then.
still playin' Motorstorm