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Pastafarianism

Mom's Spaghetti

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31

Wednesday, May 6th 2015, 11:58am

@Veritable
OK. Thanks!

Symthic's Friendly Neighborhood Pastafarian


Master of nothing, mediocre at everything... except dropping ammo boxes. I do that like it's my fucking job.
BAND RECOMMENDATION OF THE WEEK (or really till whenever I update it): I don't really have much if I'm being honest. Give me some metalcore recommendations and I'll try 'em out
Good Quotes Ahead:

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Quoted


You're into Chinese nowadays?
No, but i am into immature jokes about sexual intercourse with cats with a pinch of stereotypical asian accent. :D

Thanks razal.

I don't even have a big neck.

I didn't know vertigo could disrupt one's sense of size.


  • "Veritable" started this thread

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32

Thursday, May 7th 2015, 3:17am

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

Pastafarianism

Mom's Spaghetti

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33

Thursday, May 7th 2015, 12:16pm

Quoted

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Symthic's Friendly Neighborhood Pastafarian


Master of nothing, mediocre at everything... except dropping ammo boxes. I do that like it's my fucking job.
BAND RECOMMENDATION OF THE WEEK (or really till whenever I update it): I don't really have much if I'm being honest. Give me some metalcore recommendations and I'll try 'em out
Good Quotes Ahead:

Spoiler Spoiler


Quoted


You're into Chinese nowadays?
No, but i am into immature jokes about sexual intercourse with cats with a pinch of stereotypical asian accent. :D

Thanks razal.

I don't even have a big neck.

I didn't know vertigo could disrupt one's sense of size.


Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

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34

Thursday, May 7th 2015, 1:41pm

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

The Hitrater outputs are multiplied by the weapon projectile's damage rating at that range, for a Damage score (higher the better).

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 8| (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Zer0Cod3x" (May 7th 2015, 2:53pm)


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35

Thursday, May 7th 2015, 2:11pm

Very interesting, keep up the good work. On a side note, do you somehow account symetrical horizontal recoil vs nonsymetrical recoil? For me that's to a certain degree another factor for usability.

Zer0Cod3x

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36

Thursday, May 7th 2015, 2:52pm

On a side note, do you somehow account symetrical horizontal recoil vs nonsymetrical recoil? For me that's to a certain degree another factor for usability.

Using Hitrater, I calculate the hit rates for each weapon with each attachment combinations for the following scenerios: Center H-Recoil, Aiming at Center Mass

You centre the H-Rec by adding the two values together and dividing them by two, ending up with symmetrical recoil. Pretty simple maths.

Not sure why you have to do it though, I think it's something to do with Hitrater being inconsistent when using asymmetrical recoil values. Can someone explain this?
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


Pastafarianism

Mom's Spaghetti

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Posts: 1,774

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Platform: 360

Location: United States, Pennsylvania

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37

Thursday, May 7th 2015, 2:57pm

Quoted

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

The Hitrater outputs are multiplied by the weapon projectile's damage rating at that range, for a Damage score (higher the better).

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 8| (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Symthic's Friendly Neighborhood Pastafarian


Master of nothing, mediocre at everything... except dropping ammo boxes. I do that like it's my fucking job.
BAND RECOMMENDATION OF THE WEEK (or really till whenever I update it): I don't really have much if I'm being honest. Give me some metalcore recommendations and I'll try 'em out
Good Quotes Ahead:

Spoiler Spoiler


Quoted


You're into Chinese nowadays?
No, but i am into immature jokes about sexual intercourse with cats with a pinch of stereotypical asian accent. :D

Thanks razal.

I don't even have a big neck.

I didn't know vertigo could disrupt one's sense of size.


  • "Veritable" started this thread

Posts: 723

Date of registration
: Dec 8th 2013

Platform: PC

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38

Thursday, May 7th 2015, 5:55pm

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 8| (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry ;(

In the meantime, could I perhaps interest you in a delicious plate of Ak5C + HBar + AFG + ACOG? Decided to grind through it to get it set up, as inspired by this list and... holy crap.




20%+ weapon accuracy at mid-range right off the bat. Where has this been all my life...?

Finally, yes, you're quite correct. HBar PP2k is way to good to not recommend.

So much for your "terrible gun," eh? Things might change though as I add other PDWs, especially I think the PDW-R will do quite well in here.
Not sure why you have to do it though, I think it's something to do with Hitrater being inconsistent when using asymmetrical recoil values. Can someone explain this?

I don't know exactly how Hitrater works behind the scene, but when you enter H-Recoil values that have the same spread but one is symmetrical and the other asymmetrical, the symmetrical one come out WAY ahead. C0llis then suggested that I center the H-Recoil, as the shooter would invariably also counter the mean-drift. An experienced player would know to generally pull slightly left in addition to pulling down when using an M416, for example, vs. straight down in weapons with balanced recoil.

Is that fair? I kinda struggle with it still. In my first trip down this lane, though, when I looked at whether or not to use Comp or HBar in Assault Rifles (kinda like a junior version of this list), not doing so made the M416 and QBZ-95-1 a lot worse than what we know they are capable of. This seems to be a better representation of how weapons perform in BF4, so I am sticking to it for now.

Pastafarianism

Mom's Spaghetti

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Posts: 1,774

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39

Thursday, May 7th 2015, 6:37pm

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

Symthic's Friendly Neighborhood Pastafarian


Master of nothing, mediocre at everything... except dropping ammo boxes. I do that like it's my fucking job.
BAND RECOMMENDATION OF THE WEEK (or really till whenever I update it): I don't really have much if I'm being honest. Give me some metalcore recommendations and I'll try 'em out
Good Quotes Ahead:

Spoiler Spoiler


Quoted


You're into Chinese nowadays?
No, but i am into immature jokes about sexual intercourse with cats with a pinch of stereotypical asian accent. :D

Thanks razal.

I don't even have a big neck.

I didn't know vertigo could disrupt one's sense of size.


  • "Veritable" started this thread

Posts: 723

Date of registration
: Dec 8th 2013

Platform: PC

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40

Friday, May 8th 2015, 3:00am

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

Sorry bud ;( 0.35 ADS - Not Moving Spread for Bullpup Carbines is just that bad. The other Bullpup Carbines, the Type-95B-1 and the MTAR-21, the former get around that by having very low H-Recoil and SIPS so it is good at long range while extremely low V-Recoil just make it very easy to use, while the latter has that 900RPM to shred people up close. Alas, the A-91 does neither. I guess you'll be pining for the upcoming Groza now 8)

Honestly, it looks like DICE assigned SIPS and H-Recoil values according to their programmed RPMs, without accounting that due to 30Hz simulation rate certain RPMs are the same as others. Without offering suggestions as to how I think the A-91 should be balanced, I will just say that 60Hz will do wonders to it.

Added the AWS and MG4 to the Google Sheets. Both work decently with HBar + Stubby or HBar + Ergo. If not using HBar, then AWS is better with Comp while the MG4 is better with MB.

Now that we have 3 Support weapons, here are their charts vs. each other, descending based on their Overall Rank:





Sorry Viper for the M60 ranking slipping, but 15.6s to put in 100x bullets that average 28.34 damage in this simulation vs. 8.35s to put in 100x bullets that avg. 20.04 damage (AWS) vs. 12.4s to put in 200x bullets that avg. 20.31 damage (MG4) really dragged it down.... :(

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Veritable" (May 8th 2015, 3:06am)