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21

Monday, May 4th 2015, 6:32pm

@Veritable

Regarding the frame number, would it be possible to run Hitrater calculations based on a small sequence of frames (say, from 10 to 20 frames), with the corresponding varying amount of shots fired, and then average those results per distance category? That way, I think the ratings wouldn't be skewed as much in favor of RPMs which happen to match up perfectly with a specific frame number.

Granted, it'd be a lot of work so I understand that this isn't something one would kitbash in half an hour.

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22

Monday, May 4th 2015, 6:47pm

Thanks for this thread, Veritable.

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23

Monday, May 4th 2015, 7:49pm

@jais
Guns do actually perform better because of how their RPM corresponds to frames, FAMAS especially. And most of the extra bullets higher RPM weapons shoot out are in the first few frames so a shorter frame sample won't help your a-91.

13 frames is a pretty good choice. 3 for 300 rpm. 5 bullets for the 600 rpm guns. 6 for 700 rpm. 7 for 830 rpm. 9 for 1000 rpm. At 25m and 50m once 7 bullets have been shot hitrates are typically so good the firefight is over.

After the CTE updates hit I suspect magdumping will be the correct way to shoot and a framerate sample of 27 or 30 to give the 600 rpm guns time to fire 10 bullets may be a more realistic scenario.

Edit: The only choice as good as 13 frames would be enough to allow all the DMRs to fire 3 or 4 rounds.

@veritable
>50m 3 round burst is where qbu outperforms everything, probably actually starting at 47m, especially if the need to shoot 4 bullets is discounted. Though after your post I may give the scar another shot.


In general on it...
My experience with shooting the qbu88 for ~2k kills isn't like anything else. You want to be spotted on the minimap and maybe even 3d and get people to shoot at you from 50m +. You dance around until you feel confident you can ADS stand still 3 round burst them to death. If they have body armor or you missed one shot send another one or two after that burst.

Basically you just move around at range goading people into shooting you at a range where you have an extreme advantage, and moving around is important because at 50m+ nearly all guns can't hit a moving target well, excepting things like magdumping RPKs which are almost as rare as DMRs.

Angled / Flash-Hider for attachments and reloading is half of what you're doing. Smoke grenades are helpful.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "cod" (May 4th 2015, 7:57pm)


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24

Tuesday, May 5th 2015, 3:08am

New feature added: Instead of doing a write-up, I made bar graphs showing all attachment combos, with colour-coded bars showing Useability, Moving Damage and Not Moving Damage. This chart is sorted with the highest Useability Score on top then descending, giving you a good sense of how Damage output tend to increase as you move away from ease-of-use attachments. Of course, if a certain combo is abnormally putting out good Damage while retaining good Useability, then such a combo should stick out in this chart.

Basically, long Blue Bars = easy to use, long Red Bars = does good damage while moving within 50m, long Orange Bars = does good damage while not moving beyond 50m. Long bars overall = the best when combining everything.

Finally, as a further test to make sure this Big List stands up, I have added the Youtuber's Favorite... the vaunted ACE 23 Assault. It slots into #3 Overall on the list, with Above Average EVERYTHING except for Hipfire, and then just barely.

Now that the Google Sheets is set up well, I will try to add a new gun every day.

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25

Tuesday, May 5th 2015, 12:43pm

Quoted

Finally, as a further test to make sure this Big List stands up, I have added the Youtuber's Favorite... the vaunted ACE 23 Assault. It slots into #3 Overall on the list, with Above Average EVERYTHING except for Hipfire, and then just barely.

Now that the Google Sheets is set up well, I will try to add a new gun every day.

Interesting. I'm surprised the AK5C ranked higher than the ACE.

Personally, I'd love to see the L85A2 added, as I believe it's the best gun in the game; it combines low recoil, a good ROF, a great muzzle velocity, good standing and moving ADS values (especially with the infamous heavy barrel and ergo combo), good hipfire (again, really good with ergo), and it's only trade off is it's mediocrity at extreme long range, and to an extent extreme close range, as well as a looong reload.

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No, but i am into immature jokes about sexual intercourse with cats with a pinch of stereotypical asian accent. :D

Thanks razal.

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26

Tuesday, May 5th 2015, 1:27pm

Guns do actually perform better because of how their RPM corresponds to frames, FAMAS especially. And most of the extra bullets higher RPM weapons shoot out are in the first few frames so a shorter frame sample won't help your a-91.

13 frames is a pretty good choice. 3 for 300 rpm. 5 bullets for the 600 rpm guns. 6 for 700 rpm. 7 for 830 rpm. 9 for 1000 rpm. At 25m and 50m once 7 bullets have been shot hitrates are typically so good the firefight is over.
I'm well aware that the 30 Hz tick rate rewards some weapons more than others - at certain burst lengths. After all, the longer you fire the more the in-game ROF matches the stated ROF. The problem with sticking to a specfic frame number is that it will always prioritize some ROFs more than others. For example, if the frame number was 14 instead of 13, weapons with a ROF 800 would manage to squeeze out an extra round compared to a weapon with a ROF of 700. And DMRs with a ROF of 260 cannot fire more than 2 rounds with a frame number of 13, which is not even enough to kill someone (unless there's a headshot in there somewhere). That's a pretty substantial disadvantage when compared to other weapons.

I don't know why you assume I have a vested interest in the A-91 (maybe you confused me with some of the other posters), I'm just interested in approximating the real, in-game performance of a weapon. And that performance does not consist of weapons always and only firing for 13 frames in each and every burst. Hence why I suggested to average the hit performance over a sample of burst lengths.

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27

Tuesday, May 5th 2015, 6:48pm

Interesting. I'm surprised the AK5C ranked higher than the ACE.

Ak5C vs. ACE 23



Reload Score: Ak5C ahead by 17.15%
Velocity Score: Ak5C ahead by 1.41%
V-Recoil Score: Ak5C ahead by 16.84% (thanks to slightly lower V-Recoil per shot and also pretty much the "best" AFG-ed FSM in the game except for L85A2)
10m Hipfire: Ak5C ahead by 31% (only by digging into the Symthic Stats did I realize that Assault Rifle Hipfire is actually quite bad)
25m ADS -Moving: Ak5C ahead by 0.26%

50m ADS - Moving: ACE 23 ahead by 7.25%
50m ADS - Not Moving: ACE 23 ahead by 26.20%
75m ADS: ACE 23 ahead by 28.47%
100m ADS: ACE 23 ahead by 34.33%

Overall: Ak5C ahead by 1.05%

Ak5C actually has the same H-Recoil spread as the ACE 23. Run HBar on both and they actually have very similar ADS - Not Moving hitrates. The long-range damage values are mostly just brought down by the terribad 15.4 Carbine minimum bullet damage.
Personally, I'd love to see the L85A2 added

I have pulled the 2 non-All-Kits weapons (M60E4 and ACE 23) from the list for now, to keep the Rankings useful for people who just want to choose between Carbines and DMRs. They are still in the Google Sheets, though. Once I have done all the Assault Rifles, then I will put up a separate list for Assault players only, to help them choose being ARs / Carbines / DMRs. Same for Support LMGs, and then same for Engineer PDWs.
I'm well aware that the 30 Hz tick rate rewards some weapons more than others - at certain burst lengths. After all, the longer you fire the more the in-game ROF matches the stated ROF. The problem with sticking to a specfic frame number is that it will always prioritize some ROFs more than others.

Yes, but since this is a ranking where everyone is to be compared to each other, I have to draw the line somewhere.

I started out with the simulation at 30Hz, 1 second of firing. The resulting recommendation is just HBar + Stubby for everyone, thanks to multiple rounds fired at the ADS Max Spread Cap that Stubby gives you.

I looked at 15Hz, 1/2 second of firing. As you say now all DMRs can shoot 3 rounds. So now I am looking at the 0.6 H-Recoil spread of the M39 EMR and the 0.7 on the SKS and wondering why they are even in the game, as they cannot compete against the 0.2 H-Recoil spreads that almost everyone else has.

I looked at very short firing times, like just enough frames for the 260RPM DMRs to fire 1 round. Since no follow-up shots are taken with them, then every attachment that does not affect V-Recoil become useless, since when ADS-ing all DMRs hit their first shots center-mass at up to 100m and beyond. That results in recommending MB + AFG for all of them, and you know as well as I do that that cannot be right.

I agree that by constraining the simulation to bullet-out frames does punish certain RPMs while helping others. However, that is the reality of Frostbite, that a bullet is either fired or not, once every 1/30 second, not possible in a fraction during. That, combined with low-RPM weapons generally having better SIPS / V-Recoil / H-Recoil values, make them much better than what their pure RPMs suggest.

Which is pretty much exactly what 3VN was trying to tell us in the Shooting Mechanics post I linked in the OP.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Veritable" (May 5th 2015, 7:43pm)


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28

Wednesday, May 6th 2015, 3:23am


Personally, I'd love to see the L85A2 added, as I believe it's the best gun in the game; it combines low recoil, a good ROF, a great muzzle velocity, good standing and moving ADS values (especially with the infamous heavy barrel and ergo combo), good hipfire (again, really good with ergo), and it's only trade off is it's mediocrity at extreme long range, and to an extent extreme close range, as well as a looong reload.

L85A2 added. In the to-be-published Big List for Assault Players, it would have been placed #3 Overall, pushing the ACE 23 down to #4, but with only 0.69% higher overall score.

Here is its chart, vs. the ACE 23 and the Ak5C that still remains ahead of it:




As you expect already, it beats the ACE 23 in Velocity, V-Recoil, and any Moving. Loses in Reload and anything Not Moving, but the latter only by 3.14%.

Recommend HBar + AFG (best FSM in the game) or if needing Moving and Hipfire even more then FH + Ergo. Also looks not bad with MB + Ergo.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Veritable" (May 6th 2015, 4:06am)


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29

Wednesday, May 6th 2015, 3:34am

Quoted


Personally, I'd love to see the L85A2 added, as I believe it's the best gun in the game; it combines low recoil, a good ROF, a great muzzle velocity, good standing and moving ADS values (especially with the infamous heavy barrel and ergo combo), good hipfire (again, really good with ergo), and it's only trade off is it's mediocrity at extreme long range, and to an extent extreme close range, as well as a looong reload.

L85A2 added. In the to-be-published Big List for Assault Players, it would have been placed #3 Overall, pushing the ACE 23 down to #4, but with only 0.69% higher overall score.

Here is its chart, vs. the ACE 23:



As you expect already, it beats the ACE 23 in Velocity, V-Recoil, and any Moving. Loses in Reload and anything Not Moving, but the latter only by 3.14%.

Recommend HBar + AFG (best FSM in the game) or if needing Moving and Hipfire even more then FH + Ergo. Also looks not bad with MB + Ergo.

Really? It's a REALLY good gun...
I'm surprised that's all it gets. Thanks a lot! Sorry to bother you by adding another AR. Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Just a suggestion. Obviously it's your work, do what you feel is best.
Edit: I keep looking over your work, and I just... Excellent job mate. I already repped the first post, but... Just so well done. Can't say it enough

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Master of nothing, mediocre at everything... except dropping ammo boxes. I do that like it's my fucking job.
BAND RECOMMENDATION OF THE WEEK (or really till whenever I update it): I don't really have much if I'm being honest. Give me some metalcore recommendations and I'll try 'em out
Good Quotes Ahead:

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Quoted


You're into Chinese nowadays?
No, but i am into immature jokes about sexual intercourse with cats with a pinch of stereotypical asian accent. :D

Thanks razal.

I don't even have a big neck.

I didn't know vertigo could disrupt one's sense of size.


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30

Wednesday, May 6th 2015, 4:11am

Really? It's a REALLY good gun... I'm surprised that's all it gets. Thanks a lot! Sorry to bother you by adding another AR. Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Don't fret so much; it beat the vaunted ACE 23, Youtubers' "MLG Favorite" :P It still does not beat the Ak5C when you consider everything, simply due to Reload... and it's a Bullpup, so of course.

We're all looking for that perfect gun that shoots the fastest, has the least recoil, hurts the most per bullet, is super accurate on the first shot AND the follow-up shots, and then also reloads the fastest. I'm looking for it too, that's why I'm making this list. Doesn't look like I'll find it 8)

I will look into adding PDWs for an Engineer's Guide, but obviously they will absolutely get trounced in anything 50m+. I might have to cut that bit of the assessment out, and just say "well, if you can stay within 50m, then use this... but if you know you will have to go beyond, PLEASE get a DMR or a Carbine?"

We'll see.