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ViperFTW

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11

Monday, May 4th 2015, 2:13am

To test if this Big List can hold up if I include a non-All-Kit weapon, I have now included the M60E4 for you. As you can read in my write-up, due to how I rank V-Recoil, the AFG actually makes this gun WORSE.


I can confirm this information as correct. Please use this as an authentication towards the reliability of the rest of this chart :thumbsup:

Everybody's Favourite Worthless Support and LMG Fan! :thumbsup:



Song currently stuck in my head is: Somewhere Beyond Seas by Varathron!

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12

Monday, May 4th 2015, 3:47am

Nice work, but bad timing on this as the DMRs are getting spread changes soon.

Yes, just that it took so long so it was only presentable now. Good thing that the Google Sheets I made for it is fairly adaptable, so as soon as the Symthic Patch Notes hit I can update it fairly quickly. Running Hitrater usually takes ~20min per gun, so not too bad. I spent a lot more time playing around how to weigh things and what to rank. Now that is out of the way (I hope), it doesn't take long to update or to add.

The QBU-88 is oddly designed where it should be a mobile CQC DMR but the low recoil, high velocity, low mag, and longest reload make it a long range DMR.

I think it has odd stats because it shoots Assault RIfle rounds in real life. So it has lower SIPS and Recoil than the Battle Rifle-derived DMRs, with higher Velocity. However, if it retained Assault Rifle damage, then it wouldn't fly as a DMR, so it got crazy damage assigned to its bullet (relative to its SIPS, Recoil and Velocity values). I have gotten Mastery with it, and I still can't figure out what I should do when my BF4 guy carries it :P

The M39 is really the best all around DMR for common engagement ranges (<150m).

Gave the M39 another try last night. Rogue Transmission CQL. Heavy Barrel and AFG, 3.4x PK-A.

Not my bar-none best ever DMR round (that goes to a 1500-tickets Zavod round with Mk11 Suppressor + Ergo + 3.4x Prisma), but fairly up there. Definitely more useable than 260RPM DMRs at close range if you ADS, while accurate enough and has fast enough velocity at long range. I'm coming around... or rather I'm coming back, as M14-derivatives are exactly what made me a DMR-only guy... but it's just TERRIBLE suppressed :(

I can confirm this information as correct. Please use this as an authentication towards the reliability of the rest of this chart :thumbsup:

Good. If you have Your Pick that you want to recommend an attachment combo for The Pig, feel free and I will highlight it for you in the first post. No Bipod, though; that screws up the whole thing :pinch:

ViperFTW

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13

Monday, May 4th 2015, 12:23pm


I can confirm this information as correct. Please use this as an authentication towards the reliability of the rest of this chart :thumbsup:

Good. If you have Your Pick that you want to recommend an attachment combo for The Pig, feel free and I will highlight it for you in the first post. No Bipod, though; that screws up the whole thing :pinch:


Thanks for the offer but its great the way it is if you ask me. I would have picked bipod anyways and my second choice of ergo grip + hbar is purely based on the stubby being OP/getting nerfed in the next patch, nothing too tactical or preferential about it :)

Everybody's Favourite Worthless Support and LMG Fan! :thumbsup:



Song currently stuck in my head is: Somewhere Beyond Seas by Varathron!

Pastafarianism

Mom's Spaghetti

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14

Monday, May 4th 2015, 12:40pm

Quick question; why is the A-91 last :(
It should be ranking pretty high up, with 800 RPM and .31 up recoil. Compensator and stubby should make this gun pretty good, and usable!

Symthic's Friendly Neighborhood Pastafarian


Master of nothing, mediocre at everything... except dropping ammo boxes. I do that like it's my fucking job.
BAND RECOMMENDATION OF THE WEEK (or really till whenever I update it): I don't really have much if I'm being honest. Give me some metalcore recommendations and I'll try 'em out
Good Quotes Ahead:

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Quoted


You're into Chinese nowadays?
No, but i am into immature jokes about sexual intercourse with cats with a pinch of stereotypical asian accent. :D

Thanks razal.

I don't even have a big neck.

I didn't know vertigo could disrupt one's sense of size.


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15

Monday, May 4th 2015, 1:17pm

Quick question; why is the A-91 last :(
It should be ranking pretty high up, with 800 RPM and .31 up recoil. Compensator and stubby should make this gun pretty good, and usable!
Been asking this myself. I've been fooling around with the more cqc carbines, namely ACW-R, SG553 and the A-91. While the ACW-R is a bit too "jumpy" for me, I really like the SG553 and the A-91, though I tend towards the A-91. Sure the reload time is awfull, but I like the better hipfire a lot. Aditionally I'm strafing quite a lot while shooting, so the A-91 just feels a bit better to me then the SG553.

Zer0Cod3x

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16

Monday, May 4th 2015, 1:46pm

Quick question; why is the A-91 last :(
It should be ranking pretty high up, with 800 RPM and .31 up recoil. Compensator and stubby should make this gun pretty good, and usable!

Been asking this myself.

Well, with a comp and stubby, it's still got a horrible min spread of 0.35, and even with a comp it still has 0.525 total H-Rec. SIPS is 0.11492, which is quite mediocre. In addition to its painful reload time, over 13 frames with an 800 RPM it unfortunately only shoots 6 bullets, the same amount as the AK5C at 700 RPM, and that's a whole lot more accurate. Even over 26 frames, double the amount studied here, the A-91 shoots only 12 bullets to the AK5C's 11, which isn't that much of a difference considering how much easier the AK5C is to use and how much more accurate it is.

So in essence, it's essentially a slightly longer range all-kit PDW. Think of it that way instead of comparing it to other carbines. As with a PDW, there's not much point using it past 50m, as shown in the study.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


Pastafarianism

Mom's Spaghetti

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17

Monday, May 4th 2015, 1:59pm

Quoted

Quick question; why is the A-91 last :(
It should be ranking pretty high up, with 800 RPM and .31 up recoil. Compensator and stubby should make this gun pretty good, and usable!

Been asking this myself.

Well, with a comp and stubby, it's still got a horrible min spread of 0.35, and even with a comp it still has 0.525 total H-Rec. SIPS is 0.11492, which is quite mediocre. In addition to its painful reload time, over 13 frames with an 800 RPM it unfortunately only shoots 6 bullets, the same amount as the AK5C at 700 RPM, and that's a whole lot more accurate. Even over 26 frames, double the amount studied here, the A-91 shoots only 12 bullets to the AK5C's 11, which isn't that much of a difference considering how much easier the AK5C is to use and how much more accurate it is.

So in essence, it's essentially a slightly longer range all-kit PDW. Think of it that way instead of comparing it to other carbines. As with a PDW, there's not much point using it past 50m, as shown in the study.

Maybe, I guess. But the M-TAR ranked higher, and it's worse

Symthic's Friendly Neighborhood Pastafarian


Master of nothing, mediocre at everything... except dropping ammo boxes. I do that like it's my fucking job.
BAND RECOMMENDATION OF THE WEEK (or really till whenever I update it): I don't really have much if I'm being honest. Give me some metalcore recommendations and I'll try 'em out
Good Quotes Ahead:

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Quoted


You're into Chinese nowadays?
No, but i am into immature jokes about sexual intercourse with cats with a pinch of stereotypical asian accent. :D

Thanks razal.

I don't even have a big neck.

I didn't know vertigo could disrupt one's sense of size.


Zer0Cod3x

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18

Monday, May 4th 2015, 2:16pm

Quoted

Quick question; why is the A-91 last :(
It should be ranking pretty high up, with 800 RPM and .31 up recoil. Compensator and stubby should make this gun pretty good, and usable!

Been asking this myself.

Well, with a comp and stubby, it's still got a horrible min spread of 0.35, and even with a comp it still has 0.525 total H-Rec. SIPS is 0.11492, which is quite mediocre. In addition to its painful reload time, over 13 frames with an 800 RPM it unfortunately only shoots 6 bullets, the same amount as the AK5C at 700 RPM, and that's a whole lot more accurate. Even over 26 frames, double the amount studied here, the A-91 shoots only 12 bullets to the AK5C's 11, which isn't that much of a difference considering how much easier the AK5C is to use and how much more accurate it is.

So in essence, it's essentially a slightly longer range all-kit PDW. Think of it that way instead of comparing it to other carbines. As with a PDW, there's not much point using it past 50m, as shown in the study.

Maybe, I guess. But the MTAR ranked higher, and it's worse

Not necessarily, you're forgetting the extra bullet it fires over 13 frames. At close-mid range (10m hipfire moving and 25m ADS moving) that extra bullet is more likely to hit than to not hit (can't give exact hitrates because I'm going off the spreadsheet Veritable typed up). And as with the A-91 you shouldn't be using the MTAR past 50m.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


Pastafarianism

Mom's Spaghetti

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19

Monday, May 4th 2015, 2:54pm

Quoted

Quoted

Quick question; why is the A-91 last :(
It should be ranking pretty high up, with 800 RPM and .31 up recoil. Compensator and stubby should make this gun pretty good, and usable!

Been asking this myself.

Well, with a comp and stubby, it's still got a horrible min spread of 0.35, and even with a comp it still has 0.525 total H-Rec. SIPS is 0.11492, which is quite mediocre. In addition to its painful reload time, over 13 frames with an 800 RPM it unfortunately only shoots 6 bullets, the same amount as the AK5C at 700 RPM, and that's a whole lot more accurate. Even over 26 frames, double the amount studied here, the A-91 shoots only 12 bullets to the AK5C's 11, which isn't that much of a difference considering how much easier the AK5C is to use and how much more accurate it is.

So in essence, it's essentially a slightly longer range all-kit PDW. Think of it that way instead of comparing it to other carbines. As with a PDW, there's not much point using it past 50m, as shown in the study.

Maybe, I guess. But the MTAR ranked higher, and it's worse

Not necessarily, you're forgetting the extra bullet it fires over 13 frames. At close-mid range (10m hipfire moving and 25m ADS moving) that extra bullet is more likely to hit than to not hit (can't give exact hitrates because I'm going off the spreadsheet Veritable typed up). And as with the A-91 you shouldn't be using the MTAR past 50m.

The extra bullet? Well, there's an extra bullet fired from the A-91 over the AK5C? I see your logic, but I don't think you're seeing mine?

The A-91 provides above average CQC performance, and slightly sub-par (but certainly still doable) medium range ability, while retaining excellent vertical recoil. It's easy to use, simply put

Symthic's Friendly Neighborhood Pastafarian


Master of nothing, mediocre at everything... except dropping ammo boxes. I do that like it's my fucking job.
BAND RECOMMENDATION OF THE WEEK (or really till whenever I update it): I don't really have much if I'm being honest. Give me some metalcore recommendations and I'll try 'em out
Good Quotes Ahead:

Spoiler Spoiler


Quoted


You're into Chinese nowadays?
No, but i am into immature jokes about sexual intercourse with cats with a pinch of stereotypical asian accent. :D

Thanks razal.

I don't even have a big neck.

I didn't know vertigo could disrupt one's sense of size.


  • "Veritable" started this thread

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20

Monday, May 4th 2015, 5:54pm

Quick question; why is the A-91 last :(
It should be ranking pretty high up, with 800 RPM and .31 up recoil. Compensator and stubby should make this gun pretty good, and usable!

Been asking this myself. I've been fooling around with the more cqc carbines, namely ACW-R, SG553 and the A-91. While the ACW-R is a bit too "jumpy" for me, I really like the SG553 and the A-91, though I tend towards the A-91. Sure the reload time is awfull, but I like the better hipfire a lot. Aditionally I'm strafing quite a lot while shooting, so the A-91 just feels a bit better to me then the SG553.

On the Useability front, the MTAR has slightly better Reload (it's got a bolt assist so it has quicker empty reload time) and higher Velocity. Yes, V-Recoil is worse but in terms of overall Useability, as things are weighed right now, MTAR is ahead by percentage points.

At close range, not surprisingly it loses to the MTAR in Hipfire (everybody does), but more surprisingly it also loses to the ACW-R and SG553. Yes, it has higher % hit from its shots, but those other guys shoot 1 more bullet and usually hits them, as Carbine hipfire is already pretty good.

When you ADS, then the A-91 gets shafted by the 0.35 base Spread AND the 0.7 combined H-Recoil, which is same as the ACW-R (but that has 0.3 base Spread) and worse than the SG553.

Finally, don't feel too bad that its currently last. It's a ranking, so somebody has to be last :P It's only behind the MTAR by something like 2%. If you weigh something differently, it can be ahead. As I add more weapons to the chart, such as subjecting PDWs to 100m ADS - Not Moving shooting, I'm sure the A-91 will not be last anymore ;)

(can't give exact hitrates because I'm going off the spreadsheet Veritable typed up).

If you want the actual hitrates, look for the "Hitrater" columns (O, R, U, X, AA, AD). Those are the actual values. Then if you want % of hit, just divide that with the "Fired" column, which is B.