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Saturday, May 2nd 2015, 7:28am

The "Big List" of All Kits: Featuring Useability Stats, Hitrater and 3VN's Shooting Mechanics

Premise

Each DMR and Carbine is ranked by using the combined average Overall Score of all of its attachment combinations, which is 15 combinations per gun.

The Overall Score is a combination of the following components:

50% Useability - Rate of Fire (11.2%) Reload (12%) Velocity (17.4%) V-Recoil Per Shot (30%) FSM Difference to 1.0 (17.4%) H-Recoil Deflection (12%)
25% Mobile Damage Hitrate x Bullet Damage at Range - 10m Hipfire Moving (10%) 20m Hipfire Not Moving (10%) 30m ADS Moving (10%) 40m ADS Moving (10%) 50m ADS Moving (10%)
25% Ranged Damage Hitrate x Bullet Damage at Range - 60m ADS Not Moving (10%) 70m ADS Not Moving (10%) 80m ADS Not Moving (10%) 90m ADS Not Moving (10%) 100m ADS Not Moving (10%)

For the length of firing, I used 3VN's Shooting Mechanics tables here and here. I settled upon the exact number of frames that it takes for a 300RPM weapon to fire 3 rounds, which is 13 frames. 13 frames also bring a good demarcation to separate high and low RPM weapons. The rounds fired are thus: 830 / 880 / 900RPM - 7, 700 / 770 / 800RPM - 6, 650 / 680RPM - 5, 300 / 310 / 330RPM - 3, 260RPM - 2.

The Hitrater outputs are multiplied by the weapon projectile's damage rating at that range, for a Damage score (higher the better).

Details on Attachments
  • Angled Foregrip (AFG) has no bearing on accuracy (except for Opportunity Costs due to not running other Grips), but improves FSM score and thus improves Useability.
  • Ergo Grip (Ergo) has no bearing on Useability nor any ADS - Not Moving scores (again, except for Opportunity Costs due to not running other Grips), but improves Hipfire - Moving and ADS - Moving scores.
  • Stubby Grip (Stubby) has no bearing on Useability (except Opportunity Costs) but helps improve Hitrates across the board thanks to both SIPS reduction and Max Spread cap.
  • Compensator (Comp) has no bearing on Useability (except Opportunity Costs) and both helps Hitrates (due to reduced H-Recoil) and hurts (due to increased SIPS). Generally more helpful for weapons with high H-Recoil and at closer ranges, especially paired with Stubby. Absolutely not helpful for DMRs due to their usual very low H-Recoil spread, except for the SKS possibly.
  • Flash Hider (FH), also stands in for Naked. Affects nothing, of course, other than losing out the benefits of not running other barrel attachments.
  • Heavy Barrel (HBar) has slight detriment in Useability due to V-Recoil+ but improves Hitrates due to better Starting Spread (for ADS) and SIPS reduction. HBar + Stubby is the most accurate rapid firing combination at long range. However, its helpfulness on DMRs is limited due to 100% Hitrate on all 1st shots already for them in this study.
  • Muzzle Brake (MB) improves Useability thanks to V-Recoil- but slightly hurts Hitrates due to SIPS penalty.
  • Suppressor (Supp) has almost no bearing on Hitrates, matching FH stats for everything except for a slight penalty in Hipfire - Moving when paired with Ergo. It also takes a pretty dramatic hit in Useability due to the Velocity-. The one main advantage of the Supp, though, that of being removed from the Minimap when firing, unfortunately cannot be quantified.


The Big List

#1 Overall - QBU-88 DMR


#2 Overall - M39 EMR DMR


#3 Overall - Ak5C Carbine


#4 Overall - Type-95B-1 Carbine


#5 Overall - SKS DMR


#6 Overall - M4 Carbine


#7 Overall - G36C Carbine


#8 Overall - SCAR-H SV DMR


#9 Overall - SVD-12 DMR


#10 Overall - Mk11 Mod 0 DMR


#11 Overall - SG553 Carbine


#12 Overall - RFB DMR


#13 Overall - A-91 Carbine


#14 Overall - AKU-12 Carbine


#15 Overall - ACE 53 SV DMR


#16 Overall - MTAR-21 Carbine


#17 Overall - ACE 21 CQB Carbine


#18 Overall - ACW-R Carbine


#19 Overall - Groza-1 Carbine


#20 Overall - ACE 52 CQB Carbine


10m - 50m Ranking
  1. Type-95B-1 Carbine
  2. Ak5C Carbine
  3. MTAR-21 Carbine
  4. A-91 Carbine
  5. M4 Carbine
  6. Groza-1 Carbine
  7. SG553 Carbine
  8. ACW-R Carbine
  9. QBU-88 DMR
  10. G36C Carbine
  11. ACE 21 CQB Carbine
  12. AKU-12 Carbine
  13. M39 EMR DMR
  14. ACE 52 CQB Carbine
  15. SKS DMR
  16. RFB DMR
  17. SCAR-H SV DMR
  18. Mk11 DMR
  19. SVD-12 DMR
  20. ACE 53 SV DMR

60m - 100m Ranking
  1. QBU-88 DMR
  2. M39 EMR DMR
  3. SVD-12 DMR
  4. ACE 53 SV DMR
  5. SCAR-H SV DMR
  6. Mk11 DMR
  7. SKS DMR
  8. RFB DMR
  9. Ak5C Carbine
  10. G36C Carbine
  11. Type-95B-1 Carbine
  12. M4 Carbine
  13. AKU-12 Carbine
  14. ACE 21 CQB Carbine
  15. SG553 Carbine
  16. A-91 Carbine
  17. ACW-R Carbine
  18. MTAR-21 Carbine
  19. ACE 52 CQB Carbine
  20. Groza-1 Carbine

*edit* Here is the Google Sheets worksheet that you can sort through, which is beneficial for you to see exactly which weapon + which combo stacks up where, amongst everyone else and also amongst the same weapon. More importantly, it has all the Hitrater entries for you to copy if you want to do your own analysis: bf4_the_big_list - Google Sheets

*edit 2* As a test case, M60E4 Support-only weapon is now included. Overall rankings got shaken up so make sure to check them again.

*edit 3* Returned the list to pure All Kits weapons. I will present separate lists for Assault players (Assault Rifles vs. All kits), Support players (Machine Guns vs. All Kits) and Engineer players (PDWs vs. All Kits) once I run each class-specific weapons through Hitrater.

*edit 4* Re-ranked using new Useability Score, and all simulation re-done using Spring 2015 Weapon Balancing Patch.

*edit 5* Added 2 new lists that ranks 10m - 50m and 60m - 100m separately.

*edit 6* Re-re-ranked with what I hope to be the FINAL tweak to the Useability, which is balanced using what I think DICE SE also used to balance BF4 guns: the ACE 23 Assault Rifle with its 0.1 base SIPS.

This post has been edited 17 times, last edit by "Veritable" (Jun 12th 2015, 2:14am)


ViperFTW

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Saturday, May 2nd 2015, 5:05pm

...Why are some of the attachment combos coloured red?

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Song currently stuck in my head is: Somewhere Beyond Seas by Varathron!

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Saturday, May 2nd 2015, 5:20pm

...Why are some of the attachment combos coloured red?

"My Pick," so to speak, which might not represent the absolute statistical best, even after taking Useability into account. Yes yes, slippery slope, I know....

Example, SG553, Comp + Ergo vs. HBar + Stubby:

Total damage outputs - 437.12 vs. 455.69

Total V-Recoil - 2.46 vs. 3.198

Even after accounting for everything, Comp + Ergo loses to HBar + Stubby, but only by less than 0.05%. It's close enough to be called "pick'em," so I chose to highlight Comp + Ergo as My Pick, despite its overall position on the list.

Note: HBar + Stubby is still quite a bit better at anything ADS - Not Moving, so use that if you always set your feet before firing. Though, why you'd be using the SG553 (and not the Ak5C > G36C > AKU-12) if you want to use it like that is beyond me....

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Saturday, May 2nd 2015, 7:28pm

...Why are some of the attachment combos coloured red?

"My Pick," so to speak, which might not represent the absolute statistical best, even after taking Useability into account. Yes yes, slippery slope, I know....


Nono, I actually think that's a fairly nice addition actually. Although it'd be better if you wrote a little bit as to why you use that particular combo, would add something, especially if its not that top choice :)

Also, this is seriously clever. Nice :D

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Saturday, May 2nd 2015, 8:47pm

Very impressive analysis!

It becomes obvious, as you also note yourself, that the damage potential and weapon rankings are very dependent on the frame number chosen (13 in this case).

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Saturday, May 2nd 2015, 9:34pm


It becomes obvious, as you also note yourself, that the damage potential and weapon rankings are very dependent on the frame number chosen (13 in this case).

Yes. I struggled with that a lot.

Originally I went with 30 frames, 1 second of firing. Then Stubby's ADS Max Spread Cap reigned supreme and was totally skewing the results.

Same thing with a very short burst, like just enough time for the 260RPM DMR to shoot 1 round. In that case, there is no reason not to run MB + AFG, since the 1st shot always hit for DMRs and there is no follow up shot taken so why run HBar? Why run Stubby?

Finally, in this scenerio the M4 gets to shoot exactly 2 bursts. Any other scenerio I cannot simulate it....

As it is, the only outlier I can see is the M39 EMR. Since building this sheet I tried to go back to it, and... I just can't get it to work :( All the others seem to jive with my anecdotal evidence, and of course you guys' feedback are welcome too, as I'm sure you have used any one of them more than I do!

For example I don't even have the HBar unlocked for the Ak5C yet, so I can't even see what the fuss is about....

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Sunday, May 3rd 2015, 2:13pm

How are the guns ranked?
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


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Sunday, May 3rd 2015, 7:32pm

How are the guns ranked?

Score = the values, like m/s for Velocity and seconds for the Reload, Hitrater results * bullet damage, et cetera, compared to all the other guns and attachment combo. Best in the study scores 100 and everyone else go below that according to percentage.

Pure Damage rankings for the attachments within each gun: Scores sorted by using the Hitrater results * bullet damage ONLY.

Damage + Useability: combining everything, so essentially Reload, Velocity, V-Recoil, 10m Hipfire, 25m ADS Move, 50m ADS Move, 50m ADS Not Move, 75m ADS Not Move, 100m ADS Not Move, all weighed equally.

As for the placement of the guns in the Overall Ranking, I combined all 15 attachment combos for the gun and then Averaged them. I feel that this give a better overall picture than just putting down a massive 285 items list that within the first 10 spots has the QBU-88 combos in 6 spots and the Ak5C with 4, the first "other" gun at 14 and the second "other" at 21. I think that this is a better representation.

Also, reminder that if you want to see the whole thing, the Google Sheets is linked to the first post at the bottom!

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Sunday, May 3rd 2015, 11:04pm

To test if this Big List can hold up if I include a non-All-Kit weapon, I have now included the M60E4 for you. As you can read in my write-up, due to how I rank V-Recoil, the AFG actually makes this gun WORSE. Whether or not this is the correct way of going forward, will be up for debate. It is quite nicely ranked, though, with good overall damage and the Stubby Max ADS Spread Cap kinda breaking things :P The rankings also got shaken up due to the new inclusion, so make sure to check it again.

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Monday, May 4th 2015, 12:16am

Nice work, but bad timing on this as the DMRs are getting spread changes soon.

The QBU-88 is oddly designed where it should be a mobile CQC DMR but the low recoil, high velocity, low mag, and longest reload make it a long range DMR. Trying to take advantage of the bullpup bonuses and fire rate will usually result in getting killed while reloading. This odd balancing makes the SKS + ergo/vertical better for practical hipfire and mobile shooting. The QBU-88 was my favorite for awhile but I moved on to the SVD-12 as it has really good precision and a better mag size without the nearly useless bullpup bonuses. The velocity difference doesn't matter much to me because I mostly run my weapons suppressed.

The M39 is really the best all around DMR for common engagement ranges (<150m). I like using the iron sights to reduce the effect of the vrecoil while getting some zoom. I find that using DMRs beyond 150m you start moving into the realm of scope limitations and where to be effective you really should use a bipod, but if I am going to bipod down I would prefer a LMG.
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