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  • "Veritable" started this thread

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Saturday, January 10th 2015, 3:43am

MTAR-21 Burst - Can it be A Thing?

It seems like the next "Symthic Secret" is exploring how BF4's game engine updating at 30Hz has some "interesting" effects on the shooting mechanics of high-RPM weapons. Thanks to 3VN's pioneering works in that regard, and I understand that things are not as clear as we would like just yet.

However, when I was reading through the recent AEK thread, I was intrigued by a few comments with regards to it being quite a solid choice when used in Burst Mode. I understand the Burst Mode mechanics moving the horrid 3x FSM out of the burst; that part is easy to understand. The next part is how 900rpm+ weapon somehow feels no recoil in the first couple of rounds, due to the gun spitting out multiple rounds before the game engine can react. I believe this is confirmed with the 1000rpm weapons, something that CTE tried (and gave up) to fix. From the comments, though, it sounded like 900rpm is also affected somewhat?

Since I am a pure all-kits weapon user (DMRs 95%, Carbines 5% when I get fed-up and start try-hard-ing), I became intrigued enough to look into one of the other rare BF4 guns that has a Burst Mode AND shoots at 900rpm+: the MTAR-21.

Base stats: 900rpm, V-Recoil 0.34, FSM 2.8, total V-Recoil per burst 1.632, H-Recoils 0.42L | 0.42R

First, though, I had to unlock it, by completing the Multi-Talented Assignment. After the bar-none most embarrassing hour of my BF4 career, I completed the assignment in a Propaganda TDM map in which I went 4-24. Yes, I needed 4 kills, and all I got was the 4 kills ;( . The hardest part was the Grenade kill, since the various explosive nerfs I pretty much only had 1 shot at it PER LIFE :P

Now, to decide what attachments to use. To Hitrater! Scenerios are ADS - Not Moving at center-mass targets at 75m, and ADS - Moving at center-mass targets at 50m.

Naked Barrel / Suppressor / Flash Hider

Angled Foregrip - V-Recoil: 1.31784

Spoiler Spoiler

Not Moving
82.185% | 42.626% | 31.167%
1.5598 / 3
Moving
70.715% | 50.423% | 39.224%
1.6036 / 3


Ergo Grip - V-Recoil: 1.632

Spoiler Spoiler

Not Moving
82.185% | 42.626% | 31.167%
1.5598 / 3
Moving
84.844% | 58.972% | 45.041%
1.8886 / 3


Stubby Grip - V-Recoil: 1.632

Spoiler Spoiler

Not Moving
82.185% | 43.562% | 32.501%
1.5825 / 3
Moving
70.715% | 51.444% | 40.566%
1.6272 / 3


Heavy Barrel

Angled Foregrip - V-Recoil: 1.699932

Spoiler Spoiler

Not Moving
100% | 48.879% | 38.891%
1.8777 / 3
Moving
79.078% | 55.494% | 42.964%
1.7754 / 3


Ergo Grip - V-Recoil: 2.1216

Spoiler Spoiler

Not Moving
100% | 48.879% | 38.891%
1.8777 / 3
Moving
96.146% | 65.281% | 51.589%
2.1302 / 3


Stubby Grip - V-Recoil: 2.1216

Spoiler Spoiler

Not Moving
100% | 48.992% | 40.006%
1.89 / 3
Moving
79.078% | 56.466% | 44.362%
1.7991 / 3


Compensator

Angled Foregrip - V-Recoil: 1.31784

Spoiler Spoiler

Not Moving
82.185% | 47.819% | 33.359%
1.6336 / 3
Moving
70.715% | 53.214% | 40.757%
1.6469 / 3


Ergo Grip - V-Recoil: 1.632

Spoiler Spoiler

Not Moving
82.185% | 47.819% | 33.359%
1.6336 / 3
Moving
84.844% | 63.4% | 47.429%
1.9567 / 3


Stubby Grip - V-Recoil: 1.632

Spoiler Spoiler

Not Moving
82.185% | 49.587% | 35.539%
1.6731 / 3
Moving
70.715% | 54.678% | 42.76%
1.6815 / 3


Muzzle Brake

Angled Foregrip - V-Recoil: 1.186056

Spoiler Spoiler

Not Moving
82.185% | 41.824% | 30.074%
1.5408 / 3
Moving
70.715% | 49.6% | 38.101%
1.5842 / 3


Ergo Grip - V-Recoil: 1.4688

Spoiler Spoiler

Not Moving
82.185% | 41.824% | 30.074%
1.5408 / 3
Moving
84.844% | 58.072% | 43.783%
1.867 / 3


Stubby Grip - V-Recoil: 1.4688

Spoiler Spoiler

Not Moving
82.185% | 42.899% | 31.549%
1.5663 / 3
Moving
70.715% | 50.711% | 39.614%
1.6104 / 3


So, which combination is better? To quantify that, I thought I would weigh the 75m Not Moving and 50m Moving hit rates equally. Thus, here is the "V-Recoil Be Damned" ranking:

Spoiler Spoiler

  1. Ergo HB
  2. Stubby HB
  3. AFG HB
  4. Ergo Comp
  5. Ergo Naked
  6. Ergo MB
  7. Stubby Comp
  8. AFG Comp
  9. Stubby Naked
  10. Stubby MB
  11. AFG Naked
  12. AFG MB


No surprise there, Ergo + HB is always the most accurate choice in all situations. However, is 28% more accuracy vs. the AFG + MB combo worth it when you have to deal with 79% more V-Recoil? So, then I divided the aggregate hitrates with the accumulated V-Recoil, for a "useability" score. More accurate + lower V-Recoil = higher score. Here is that ranking, which is probably more realistic in terms of usage:

Spoiler Spoiler

  1. AFG MB
  2. AFG Comp
  3. AFG Naked
  4. Ergo MB
  5. Ergo Comp
  6. Stubby MB
  7. AFG HB
  8. Ergo Naked
  9. Stubby Comp
  10. Stubby Naked
  11. Ergo HB
  12. Stubby HB


Some final thoughts:
  1. I probably would not go THAT far and recommend AFG + MB, even though it is expected to do ~60% of a DMR damage at 50m ADS - Moving despite having almost the same V-Recoil (just 19% more) and being more versatile. If you are a DMR user, though, and is tired of losing in CQB, this setup might work.
  2. As people have mentioned a few times already, Stubby barely helps in a burst, so no need to use it if you expect to shoot Burst Only. Unless, of course, there is some game engine limitation that can be taken advantage of, which some posters here have alluded to with regards to Stubby + HB...
  3. As for what looks like the best OVERALL, Ergo + Comp is ranked 4th in accuracy only and yet just dropped to 5th in the combined ranking. That means it combines the best blend of accuracy and ease-of-use, so that will be my recommendation. Funny how such a setup is recommended for the MTAR-21 in automatic firing anyways....
  4. AFG + HB though is a solid secondary choice, especially if you weigh ADS - Not Moving more than ADS - Moving.

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Saturday, January 10th 2015, 4:26am

Great work. Thanks for all the info. The rankings are really useful.

Regarding those, and regarding the recent thread about the Compensator, it seems to be faring quite well. Each grip + Compensator is above it's naked counterpart, and for the usability, even Heavy Barrel.

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Saturday, January 10th 2015, 6:22am

Just wondering, wouldn't the ACW-R be a better candidate for this sort of a setup?
In exchange for 20 less rpm (which I'm pretty sure isn't THAT significant), you get better standing ads spread, faster reload, lower Hrecoil and and lower FSM.

I always thought the MTAR's main advantage is its cqc hipfire spray, putting it on burst never worked out for me.



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  • "Veritable" started this thread

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Saturday, January 10th 2015, 6:41am

Just wondering, wouldn't the ACW-R be a better candidate for this sort of a setup?

No burst mode for the ACW-R! This type of usage hinges on being able to fire a burst without being affected by FSM within the burst.

The SG553. on the other hand, does have a burst mode. Then I am more betting on that 900rpm+ vs. game engine thing being more of a... thing.

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Saturday, January 10th 2015, 10:41am

Just wondering, wouldn't the ACW-R be a better candidate for this sort of a setup?

No burst mode for the ACW-R! This type of usage hinges on being able to fire a burst without being affected by FSM within the burst.


Holy shit, how did I forget that? :pinch: My bad.

In that case, I guess I'll agree that burst mode gives the MTAR a slight edge.



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Friday, January 30th 2015, 6:27pm

I don't understand why vrecoil matters if you are looking to exploit no FSM on the first two bullets of the burst. I would try HB and ergo first...but I hate burst fire weapons so feel free to ignore this post all together.

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Saturday, January 31st 2015, 1:24am

I don't understand why vrecoil matters if you are looking to exploit no FSM on the first two bullets of the burst.

Because it is still something you have to deal with in order to get the sight back onto target after the burst has been fired. And for the MTAR-21, as you know, the accumulated V-Recoil per burst is quite hefty both on paper and in practice.

Anyways, after much failure, I have realized that the game only glitches at 1000rpm, so unfortunately shooting the MTAR with burst mode does not give any extra advantage over the M4 Carbine (except the 100rpm difference, which with the game's 30hz simulation rate that difference is debatable), which is much more manageable.

Other than, that is, the ability to fire the MTAR at full-auto, which defeats my original premise. Oh well.

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Monday, February 2nd 2015, 4:17pm

Bummer.

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Sunday, February 22nd 2015, 11:44am

Maths is my shit side

Is this saying that burst fire mode with high RPM weapons can be accurate at medium-long ranges?

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Monday, February 23rd 2015, 8:58am

Is this saying that burst fire mode with high RPM weapons can be accurate at medium-long ranges?

Not really. Take the absolute best case scenario, Heavy Barrel + Ergo Grip. Even if you manage to counter V-Recoil, you are expecting to do on average 28.92 damage per burst at 75m Not Moving and 32.80 per burst at 50m Moving. Since you are shooting 3 rounds bursts at 900rpm, that means you are essentially shooting at 300rpm.

Normal DMRs do 38 damage MINIMUM, usually does slightly higher at the ranges above, with Ergo Grip or Heavy Barrel are guaranteed to hit if your aim is on-point, and you can do so at 260rpm. Despite that, the DMR user is dealing with ~1-degree of V-Recoil while the MTAR user has to deal with over 2x that.

Carbine's 15.4 min damage from 50m and beyond really hurts it at range, and then the MTAR-21's recoil pattern does it no favours.

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