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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 4:35am

Are they fixable? And what exactly are these problems? Shouldnt those be fast to fix? Like rewriting a file or changing some?
I really wanted to know if those are engine unfixable problems or simply yet-to-be-fixed.

Nothing is unfixable, it just depends on how clever you are and how motivated (aka money) you are.

We have been talking about many of the problems on Symthic for awhile now.

They are things like visual recoil, head flinching, players facing the wrong direction, potential network smoothing (interpolation) problems, etc. Most of these thing are slated for revisions and testing on the CTE very soon.
The fact that someone has an opinion, doesn't make their opinion a fact. Making just arguments first requires an acknowledgement of intellectual humility, while valid arguments require you to not commit fallacies of logic and rhetoric.

DeathOfTheDodo

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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 4:37am

fast to fix? Like rewriting a file or changing some?


From my experience with professional game engines, when you just 'rewrite a file' or whatever that mean recompiling a fuckload of stuff. If you read into Halo CE's release, they ended up having to make a number of changes to weapon balance (Magnum, really) through server-side stuff because the game was already compiled. This is why "patches" and stuff are a big deal on their end. It's not just going into a few files and changing some values.

That may be different for Frostbite, though considering that its development tools are disturbingly complicated I doubt it.
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NoctyrneSAGA

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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 4:59am

Do you have any knowledge of those?
Are they fixable? And what exactly are these problems? Shouldnt those be fast to fix? Like rewriting a file or changing some?
I really wanted to know if those are engine unfixable problems or simply yet-to-be-fixed.


I'm sorry, but this is just stupid.

I just clearly explained that a lot of what the community deems a "netcode" or "tick rate" issue is a problem with the game code according to /u/sliced_lime.

As for fixing it, yeah, DICE purposely wants to leave the game a buggy mess because they don't care. I mean, it's not like they're paid to work. They're paid to laugh at you.


No really, /u/sliced_lime said that they're not going to simply abandon BF4 like so many people imply. They're going to fix the bugs and it is their hope that it turns out to be better, if not just as good, as BF3.
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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 5:14am


Increasing BTK allows slower weapons' low spread increase and controllable recoil properties to shine more. There's no black and white.


if you consider a continuous burst, adding one extra bullet to the BTK will likely results in a miss on that last bullet, no matter which weapon you are using. if you consider short bursts, then spread increase is less relevant, so it basically boils down to TTK again. in that scenario, faster RPM weapons are less affected by an increase in BTK.


Skill > luck.


has nothing to do with skill nor luck. it's pure statistics.


The perception of latency factors into when you decide to switch targets, which means you get the notification 60% faster and thus kill then swap to the next target 60% sooner. This faster notification and faster target swapping improves weapon effectiveness, thus the effective TTK is faster. People don't generally judge the effective TTK based on what happens in the server back end. True the DPS of each weapon is the same as it has always been and if you play on a LAN the transmission time is so fast you likely wouldn't notice a difference. I am not saying the computed TTK has changed but the MEASURED TTK has. Measured = effective.


i'm assuming you're getting that 60% improvement figure from the DICE video.

that figure is misleading and incorrect. if you do the math using DICE's numbers, you'd realize that the faster send rate gives you 60% of the latency with the old send rate. that's actually 40%. since the measurements used are likely not particularly precise, i'm gonna go on a limb and say that DICE has exaggerated the difference slightly. mathematically, a 30 hz send rate vs 10 hz results in a theoretical 66.67 ms improvement in latency (100 ms - 33.33 ms). with two clients each at 50 ms ping, that's a difference between 133.33 ms vs 200 ms. 133.33/200 = 66.67%, or a 33.33% improvement... somewhat corresponding to what DICE claimed.

or to put things into perspective, a 30 hz send rate to clients will give you a best case latency improvement of... 4 frames, assuming 60 fps. this is assuming that interpolation and extrapolation algorithms aren't functioning. with those in effect, the actual latency difference may very well drop to 0.

what can happen in 4 frames? absolute. fuck all. if you think 4 frames difference (66.67 ms) is going to affect gunplay in any significant way, you are deluding yourself.


As for the damage changes all they need to do is test them on the CTE. If you claim there would be no difference how would that harm anything.


if it's not broken, don't fix it. simple as that.

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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 5:29am

what can happen in 4 frames? absolute. fuck all. if you think 4 frames difference (66.67 ms) is going to affect gunplay in any significant way, you are deluding yourself.

Definitely not what I claimed, simply stated the measured TTK is faster. Faster is faster. Also, didn't check any of DICE's math because I don't really know what calculations were made. It could simply be a matter of language interpretation and precision as frequently occurs, causing people to think they have different opinions on the same thing, but they are really arguing about different things.
if it's not broken, don't fix it. simple as that.

That would be your opinion that it isn't broken and mine that it is. There is no objective way to decide which is better; you can simply get a consensus of opinions. How would we even get a fair consensus if the testing isn't even done?
The fact that someone has an opinion, doesn't make their opinion a fact. Making just arguments first requires an acknowledgement of intellectual humility, while valid arguments require you to not commit fallacies of logic and rhetoric.

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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 5:35am

Definitely not what I claimed, simply stated the measured TTK is faster. Faster is faster.


Damage models didn't change so there's no way TTK suddenly became faster. Perhaps the new update suddenly increased everyone's accuracy so they landed more shots, but in no way is the TTK faster. Same damage models and fire rates were in BF3 yet no one really complained about dying so fast compared to BF4. The only thing that changed was people's perceptions and the only reason that t1gge is considering weapon rebalancing, in his own words, is because players feel that they are dying faster than before.

Yet with the alleged abundance of instadeaths, they should be saying that they're dying slower than before. Hmmmm. Really goes to show how human perception is really screwy isn't it?
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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 5:40am


Definitely not what I claimed, simply stated the measured TTK is faster. Faster is faster. Also, didn't check any of DICE's math because I don't really know what calculations were made. It could simply be a matter of language interpretation and precision as frequently occurs, causing people to think they have different opinions on the same thing, but they are really arguing about different things.


as i've already proved, there's no TTK difference. to the server, there's no difference. to the target, there's no difference. to the shooter, the difference is so small that it's basically meaningless. this is what i observed as well, since i've noticed zero difference since the new retail patch in any of my weapon TTK.


That would be your opinion that it isn't broken and mine that it is. There is no objective way to decide which is better; you can simply get a consensus of opinions. How would we even get a fair consensus if the testing isn't even done?


and where's YOUR prove that it IS broken? since you have no evidence to the contrary, the status quo stands. extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. you have no evidence.

you are also putting way too much trust in the BF4 playerbase. your typical gamer has no idea how to do proper testing, and has even less idea in how to balance the game. any balance decisions made using the CTE has a greater chance of ruining the delicate balance of BF4 than improving it.

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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 5:58am

Damage models didn't change so there's no way TTK suddenly became faster. Perhaps the new update suddenly increased everyone's accuracy so they landed more shots, but in no way is the TTK faster. Same damage models and fire rates were in BF3 yet no one really complained about dying so fast compared to BF4. The only thing that changed was people's perceptions and the only reason that t1gge is considering weapon rebalancing, in his own words, is because players feel that they are dying faster than before.

Yet with the alleged abundance of instadeaths, they should be saying that they're dying slower than before. Hmmmm. Really goes to show how human perception is really screwy isn't it?

Latency is measured in units of time.
The latency time is added to the server computation of TTK when calculating effective TTK.
The latency time is now faster.
As a result effective TTK is faster.

If you measure from your end how long it took you to kill a target, that is your effective time to kill as measured from your client. This has always been different depending on your ping and network smoothing settings.

This is an objectively measurable amount of time, it isn't an illusion.

I am not talking about the server simulation, you always die at the same speed on the server if the simulation tick rate is unchanged and only at a different speed if the tick rate increases/decreases the precision of the simulation. I repeat, yes your TTK on the server simulation is the same. Yes your latency is faster. Server TTK + latency = effective TTK, which is faster.
The fact that someone has an opinion, doesn't make their opinion a fact. Making just arguments first requires an acknowledgement of intellectual humility, while valid arguments require you to not commit fallacies of logic and rhetoric.

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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 6:07am

and where's YOUR prove that it IS broken? since you have no evidence to the contrary, the status quo stands. extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. you have no evidence.

you are also putting way too much trust in the BF4 playerbase. your typical gamer has no idea how to do proper testing, and has even less idea in how to balance the game. any balance decisions made using the CTE has a greater chance of ruining the delicate balance of BF4 than improving it.

Where is your proof that it isn't? Again this isn't an exact science, we are talking about an extra BTK to the chest and one less to the head and the difference of opinion on it.

You are simply trying to squelch a dissenting opinion, by using status quo. In fact my evidence would be the test itself, so you would be preventing the gathering of evidence and then claiming I had none. People can decide if they like it one way or the other through survey/polling. Dice can then simply decide if they are going to go with what the community voted for or against it.
The fact that someone has an opinion, doesn't make their opinion a fact. Making just arguments first requires an acknowledgement of intellectual humility, while valid arguments require you to not commit fallacies of logic and rhetoric.

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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 6:08am

If you measure from your end how long it took you to kill a target, that is your effective time to kill as measured from your client. This has always been different depending on your ping and network smoothing settings.


Herein lies the problem.

t1gge is not considering a rebalance because people are complaining that they are killing their targets faster.

t1gge is considering a rebalance because people are complaining that they are dying faster.

TTK hasn't changed at all from this perspective.

I highly doubt that victims start their TTK timer from the muzzle flash, but rather from the first impact to death. From the first impact to death... Hey, that sounds like the usual TTK formula!
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