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DeathOfTheDodo

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21

Sunday, June 8th 2014, 1:37am

"Indirect nerf to low RoF Weapons"

You mean things are working closer to how they should be? BETTER BUFF STUFF.


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ViperFTW

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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 2:01am

I wouldn't say that.
In fact better hitreg (not that there was anything wrong with it before...) should mean low RPM weapons become even more deadly as well placed shots will register more often and result in faster kills.

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23

Sunday, June 8th 2014, 2:27am

So now that the netcode is fixed and every bullet seem to be hitting on target and registering does this make the low RoF guns obsolete and probably insanely underpowered? Going up against an AEK is tough but now those same weapons are going to really dominate, even at long range probably?

I mean i will wouldn't mind, most of my favorite guns have mediocre RoF and im still fine with it but what would this mean now when looking at it in performance and overall best guns perspective?

From the perspective of the server nothing about the balance has changed. Clients still send packets at 30hz and the server simulation still runs at 30hz. From the perspective of clients however the "effective TTK" is faster. Simply the time you start shooting, to the time you get a kill notification is faster. This of course means you die faster on your end from all weapons.

I don't know if the low RPM weapons were ever balanced due to DICE switching to ammo type based weapon balance while simultaneously increasing damage back in BF3. Lower RPM weapons were supposed to be better at hitting smaller hit boxes, which means body shots at longer range and headshots at closer ranges. Now at longer ranges this is reasonable as the higher RPM weapons are likely to miss more often, but at close range the damage is so high you don't have time to aim for the head. In BF3 the only low RPM weapon I found effective at close range was the QBZ-95b due to the laser sight giving enough accuracy that you could get a few hipfire hits before your opponent could ADS and out RPM you. BF4 is more of the same but now every weapon can have a laser sight, so there isn't any real advantage left for low RPM weapons at closer ranges.

The only way I can think of to fix the balance is to reduce the max damage of all weapons by 20% while also increasing the head shot multiplier to x2.4 for all weapons. This still makes high rpm weapon good for CQC, while giving a little more time for low RPM weapon users to aim for the head.
The fact that someone has an opinion, doesn't make their opinion a fact. Making just arguments first requires an acknowledgement of intellectual humility, while valid arguments require you to not commit fallacies of logic and rhetoric.

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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 2:38am

The only way I can think of to fix the balance is to reduce the max damage of all weapons by 20% while also increasing the head shot multiplier to x2.4 for all weapons.

Right? But noone listens.

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25

Sunday, June 8th 2014, 3:26am

Quoted


From the perspective of the server nothing about the balance has changed. Clients still send packets at 30hz and the server simulation still runs at 30hz. From the perspective of clients however the "effective TTK" is faster. Simply the time you start shooting, to the time you get a kill notification is faster. This of course means you die faster on your end from all weapons.


This is false. On the target's side, nothing's changed. On the shooter's side, kill confirmation is (potentially) faster.

Basically, ttk is unaffected. The only change is a potentially lower latency, so you waste less bullets.

In fact, increasing ttk will penalize slow shooting guns even more. If you lower bullet damage by 20%, that 20% makes a bigger difference when the ttk is already high, as it is for slow shooting guns.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "tehmoriz" (Jun 8th 2014, 3:31am)


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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 3:48am

This is false. On the target's side, nothing's changed. On the shooter's side, kill confirmation is (potentially) faster.

Basically, ttk is unaffected. The only change is a potentially lower latency, so you waste less bullets.

In fact, increasing ttk will penalize slow shooting guns even more. If you lower bullet damage by 20%, that 20% makes a bigger difference when the ttk is already high, as it is for slow shooting guns.


I said effective ttk, which means pull out a stop watch and time how long it takes from first shot to target death. This is faster and DICE even proved it was .

Second, if I said to ONLY lower max damage by 20% then what you said is true. The increase in headshot damage is where low rpm weapons gain TTK as the high rpm weapons are more likely to shoot over the head or shoulder if going for headshots. So you compare the TTK of low RPM weapons getting more headshots to high rpm weapons getting more body shots.
The fact that someone has an opinion, doesn't make their opinion a fact. Making just arguments first requires an acknowledgement of intellectual humility, while valid arguments require you to not commit fallacies of logic and rhetoric.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "untamedone" (Jun 8th 2014, 4:15am)


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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 3:54am

Your effective ttk is unchanged. You now merely see the ttk that the game has been operating under this entire time.

Also, your headshot multi change will likely benefit high rpm weapons more, since recoil will more likely knock bodyshots into headshots in close to medium range.

Tbh, dice's reason for increasing ttk is pointless and misguided. There's no need, and the possibility for shit to happen is rather high.

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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 4:01am

In fact, increasing ttk will penalize slow shooting guns even more. If you lower bullet damage by 20%, that 20% makes a bigger difference when the ttk is already high, as it is for slow shooting guns.

Increasing BTK allows slower weapons' low spread increase and controllable recoil properties to shine more. There's no black and white.

Also, your headshot multi change will likely benefit high rpm weapons more, since recoil will more likely knock bodyshots into headshots in close to medium range.

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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 4:07am

Your effective ttk is unchanged. You now merely see the ttk that the game has been operating under this entire time.

Also, your headshot multi change will likely benefit high rpm weapons more, since recoil will more likely knock bodyshots into headshots in close to medium range.

Tbh, dice's reason for increasing ttk is pointless and misguided. There's no need, and the possibility for shit to happen is rather high.

The perception of latency factors into when you decide to switch targets, which means you get the notification 60% faster and thus kill then swap to the next target 60% sooner. This faster notification and faster target swapping improves weapon effectiveness, thus the effective TTK is faster. People don't generally judge the effective TTK based on what happens in the server back end. True the DPS of each weapon is the same as it has always been and if you play on a LAN the transmission time is so fast you likely wouldn't notice a difference. I am not saying the computed TTK has changed but the MEASURED TTK has. Measured = effective.

As for the damage changes all they need to do is test them on the CTE. If you claim there would be no difference how would that harm anything.
The fact that someone has an opinion, doesn't make their opinion a fact. Making just arguments first requires an acknowledgement of intellectual humility, while valid arguments require you to not commit fallacies of logic and rhetoric.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "untamedone" (Jun 8th 2014, 4:12am)


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30

Sunday, June 8th 2014, 4:27am

Wait what, so the game is so messed up that even if they put it on LAN it would still have those problems?
Woooow, DICE...


sliced_lime has been saying from the start that "netcode issues" are "game code issues" and that he'd like to focus on fixing game code issues before looking to see if netcode was actually the problem. He never said that he'd simply leave it alone.

Do you have any knowledge of those?
Are they fixable? And what exactly are these problems? Shouldnt those be fast to fix? Like rewriting a file or changing some?
I really wanted to know if those are engine unfixable problems or simply yet-to-be-fixed.


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