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  • "HolyBalls111" started this thread

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Tuesday, March 18th 2014, 4:29am

PDWs and What Could Be Done To Help Them

So BF4's been out for several months, and it's clear that every engineer is using carbines and it really made no sense to switch them with PDW's for the Engi class (although I'm loving my MTAR Assault Kit). For whatever reason, I really want to see the PDW's fixed (I tried to unlock them all before the carbines) and get more use at least in domination (it surprises me ho often I get killed by an Engineer running a ACE 21 or AK5C in domination - I guess some people are just try to pretend they're in BF4. Here's just a list of changes that I wish DICE would make.

In Urgent need of a buff:

PP-2000: While it has an amazing FSM, this gun is shit on so many levels. Slower reload times (both long and short) than even the P90. It also has strange .3-.2, h recoil, which is cruel to a 650 rpm gun. Honestly, other dropping the horrendous recoil times by .2, a really easy fix to the gun would be to make it 750 rpm. Yes, it isnít realistic, but than look at the G36Ö

CBJ-MS: The slowest dmging automatic primary in the game - on top of that, it has .45 h recoil in both directions (which makes 50 rounds more of a tease than an advantage). It simply sucks. At the same time, this PDW could potentially play a unique roll in the game. If the h recoil was .3 in both directions, and end damage 14.6 (so it could be a 7 shot kill like a carbine), this gun would be perfect for firing from the side of a scout helicopter. Itís like a mini lmg. It would be cool to see the mag go to 100 rounds like it is IRL.

JS2: Some many confusing things about this gun. 1) Itís clearly bull pup - but itís not .5 ADS and .75 Hip like the PDR and P90? Since it canít even equip a grip, that should be fixed making another alternative to the PDW-R. 2) It shots a supposedly armor piercing round, and has the lowest dmg in the entire game (of the primaries). 22-12.1 would work I think.

Could use a tweak:

PDW-R: This gun is excellent on paper. Best hip fire in the game (with spread increase factored in), decent recoil, carbine damage model. However, when you use it a lot, you begin to realize that you might as well just use a carbine. Itís only 750 rpm, so, unlike the UMP, CZ or even MP7 , it not gonna put up a fight against laser sighted ACW-Rís, MTARís or even SG553. On top of that, at 460 m/s and .5 ADS spread (forgot best hip fire in the game means worst ADS too) donít exactly make it work medium range as well - even the MTAR, when recoil is compensated for, has more potential. My suggestion would be 770-800 rpm (it could be the ACE of the PDWís).

MX4: This is an OK PDW - compared to the other ones at least - but that .5 left h recoil is harsh - could be lowered to .4. The reload times (same as PDW-R) could be reduced by .1 for both long and short. Obviously a lot of carbines will work better at long range, but 830 will put up a fight against many of them within 10m.

P90: This is a campaign gun, so it has an excuse for having almost identical stats has the JS2 - but it doesnít have an excuse for having almost universally better stats than the JS2 (other than recoil, which could be fixed too) - so its really that latter than needs a buff. At the same time, the P90 shoots 5.7mm. Obviously, BF is no ARMA, and I think it make sense that they made armor piercing rounds like the 5.7 do less damage up close (hence the 21 base dmg) than bulky rounds like th 9mm, but 5.7mm should do more at range - so maybe and need dmg of 13 would work (making this 8 shot kill)

AS Val: This is actually a suggestion for a nerf lol. Because of the suppressor, this gun should really have a 1.5 hip fire spread (=bull pup carbine). Also, that 3.5x FSM should really be reduced to 3.2 or something.

MP7: This is a decent PDW, but it would be awesome to see its end velocity get a buff to 13 (since rounds like the 4.6mm will retain more damage at a distance). Could somewhat fills the hole left by the BF3 Val - has potential to be a headshot machine.

Perfectly Fine:

CZ-A3: Best close quarter automatic in the game. Period.

UMP-45: The only problem with this gun I can think of is that the ACE-52 feels like it makes it purposeless - the 52 shoots 50 rpm faster, 80 m/s faster and has a better dmg drop off. At the same time, the UMP has an amazing reload and less recoil/better hip fire than the ACE soÖ

UMP-9: This really is a pointless, slow firing PDW, but it has good recoil and reload. It also has an under barrel spot, which allows you to do a lot more with it than say the P2000. This nothing that can really be done to buff this gun - itís easy to use, and doesnít give much back.

SR-2: Canít wait for this sexy beast.

In the end, it would we could get something along these lines: CZA3, UMP-45, SR-2 already simply tear people up in smaller maps like Zavod. With an end dmg boost to 13, the MP7/P90 (which currently only have bigger mags than carbines) would only sacrifice one extra bullet than carbines and still have excellent RPMS and mags. The JS2, when hip fire is fixed and if given slightly more base dmg and less recoil than the MP7/P90 would be great for running and gunning in domination. The MX4 could use a few tweaks but ultimately is a good starting weapon. Then we have the PDW-R - which with a rpm buff could be the ACE 21 of the Engi Class- better for at CQB than carbines but weaker than the other PDWís in one way or another (either magazine size or rpm). Of course, thereís also the AS Val, made for a unique play style; with higher dmg than all carbines in every way, it will repay you for the mag and recoil limitations. After a slight dmg buff (and after the h recoil is fixed), CBJ can be situation too - excellent for any engineers riding in scout Helis who need a gun with both high capacity and velocity to take out land targets. Finally, the UMP-9 (which has the advtange of an under barrel attachment slot) and PP-2000 with a rpm boost (to where the PDW-R currently is) should be OK PDWís for those who donít want a challenge with recoil and arenít concerned about infy combat as much as destroying vehicles. Thoughts, anyone? Sometimes I wish I could have Demize's job lol.

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Tuesday, March 18th 2014, 4:46am

0.8 vs 1.8 moving hipfire sounds pretty much in favor of the PDR to me.
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Tuesday, March 18th 2014, 6:31am

The PDR is undoubtably a good weapon, and it's really my preferred weapon overall. Sure, it lacks a bit at range, but my playstyle encourages closer ranges, and if not, DMRs exist for a reason. The AS VAL, as according to our XBONE brethren, was exceedingly good pre SA for other platforms. If it was brought back to that way, it would be the best automatic gun at close range (lolscrewbodyarmor), but still hard to control with lots of recoil. Plus the velocity. Plus the low mag. Idc about the others, though the FAMAS gives the CZ3A1 a run for its money.

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Tuesday, March 18th 2014, 6:45am

PP-2000: No need for a buff. 650 RPM, 25 damage, low recoil, and this gun wrecks enemies. I was initially skeptical when I picked up for my Battlepack run, but to my surprise, this thing was a beast.

CBJ-MS: 22 damage, 700 RPM. I had the same thoughts about this as the PP-2000. Thought it'd suck. Wrecked with it.

JS2: It was basicaly a slightly inferior P90. And I love the P90. Had no issues using it either.

None of these "sucky" PDWs are crap at all. All the PDWs are viable at close range and I don't think they need any significant rebalancing. Aside from the outlier called teh AS-VAL. No idea what it's doing here.

In fact, although people hate on PDWs for their shortcomings, they're actually a very fun weapon class to use. And I honestly don't think any of them need balancing. Not once was I killed using one and thought, "Man, this thing sucks ass."
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Tuesday, March 18th 2014, 10:08am

Problem with low ROF PDWs: PDW attributes cater towards close ranges, yet slow ROF contradicts this (unless high damage, like the UMP)
Since low ROF weapons in other classes (eg assault rifles and carbines) tend to focus more on accuracy, perhaps they could make guns like the PP2000 be more accurate, but in close quarters? What do I mean by that? Improving the hip fire accuracy and reducing its hip spread increase so you can be accurate without aiming down sights in close quarters. You might say PDWs already have the best hip fire in the game but it's still terrible, just because it's less shit than the hip fire on other weapons doesn't make it good.



Also I find the JS2 to be significantly better than the P90, which I find almost unusable; the JS2 feels slightly less unusable.


And just because you wreck people with CBJ does not make it a good gun.

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Tuesday, March 18th 2014, 1:58pm

In fact, although people hate on PDWs for their shortcomings, they're actually a very fun weapon class to use. And I honestly don't think any of them need balancing. Not once was I killed using one and thought, "Man, this thing sucks ass."

Well, that isn't what I find at all. With a few exceptions I almost always find myself swapping back to carbines after equipping PDWs (unless playing TDM or DOM) because at any range other than very close range you are better off with a carbine.
What revic_crew said was correct - they are designed for CQ engagements and therefore those with a low RoF only end up punishing the people that use them. I have tried the PP2000 but basically I get killed in any face-off against an opponent because after getting the first shot off you will be riddled with bullets.

I still can't help feeling that making carbines the universal weapon instead of PDWs was a big mistake. Every class can now use them instead of their normal weapons. If they kept carbines to engineers (and medics if that class was recreated) and had PDWs and shotguns the global weapons, that would make things a lot better.

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Tuesday, March 18th 2014, 2:17pm

If my 650 rpm assault rifle hipfire is good enough to dominate derp loadouts, PDWs should have no issue at all.
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Tuesday, March 18th 2014, 2:49pm


None of these "sucky" PDWs are crap at all. All the PDWs are viable at close range and I don't think they need any significant rebalancing. Aside from the outlier called teh AS-VAL. No idea what it's doing here.

In fact, although people hate on PDWs for their shortcomings, they're actually a very fun weapon class to use. And I honestly don't think any of them need balancing. Not once was I killed using one and thought, "Man, this thing sucks ass."


That is likely because you play towards their needs, as I do, and I am probably one of the few people that actually use PDWs. There is a reason why they are so underplayed. I recently started to hipfire, which I never did before, but I can not say that hipfiring an average PDW will grant noticeably better results than a carbine or bullpup AR. What I am doing with PDWs other than with Carbines is that I think more about where to go and where to come from. That means that on Caspian Border I stay clear of A and approaching B needs to be carefully planned as well. The SR-2 behaves surprisingly well at longer than average ranges too, with its higher DMG dropoff and you feel it certainly when engaging targets with your teammates. However the JS2 was different. Maybe it was the wobbly sights or the high spread increase, I do not know. I remember what was to be the last round with the JS2 but after 6 kills or so I ran out of ammo, I thought that went well enough and picked up a kit, that I later realised was a Support. Anyway it was a M-Tar and when you have the direct comparison you feel the difference in damage, recoil, spread etc. So for the rest of the round I was using the M-Tar because I did not really die and could engage enemies that I could not have before. Of course the M-Tar has always been a favourite of mine, so I was rather used to it.

I feel that the PDWs are more than usable on the SA maps, I have not felt underpowered wielding them on these maps, BUT I have always felt that way on any other map on Conquest bar Zavod. The engagement distances for the vanilla maps are too big for the vanilla PDWs to handle, bar the PDW-R. You can fare well with them, but they are certainly harder to use, or if you want to call it can not be used as mindlessly as Carbines.
If Rezal can do well hipfiring with his QBZ, well then you could say that the hipfire bonus is rather redundant, isn't it? I recall sheepnubs weapon statistics, I recall within the 20 most used weapons, was just one PDW and that was the MX-4 the starter weapon. And there is a reason for that, and the reason is carbines bring more to the table in all circumstances than PDWs.

Edit: I am down to the last 70 kills with the SR-2 now and I am fearing that moment when I have to equip a new one, because there are only PDWs left that are statistically worse than the JS-2 that I found horrible to use already.

  • "HolyBalls111" started this thread

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Tuesday, March 18th 2014, 3:58pm

The PDR is undoubtably a good weapon, and it's really my preferred weapon overall. Sure, it lacks a bit at range, but my playstyle encourages closer ranges, and if not, DMRs exist for a reason. The AS VAL, as according to our XBONE brethren, was exceedingly good pre SA for other platforms. If it was brought back to that way, it would be the best automatic gun at close range (lolscrewbodyarmor), but still hard to control with lots of recoil. Plus the velocity. Plus the low mag. Idc about the others, though the FAMAS gives the CZ3A1 a run for its money.



Honestly, I really think the nerf to the Val made sense, because (1) it essentially could kill in 6 shots, which is the max amount of shots needed with the AR's (end dmg of 16 gives more dmg than carbines but kills in around the same amount of shots) and (2) 320 m/s was very high for a suppressed weapon, and lowering it 20 m/s made it more realistic without causing that much of a difference.

The CZA3 is definitely better than the FAMAS. It has 30 rounds, a super fast reload, much better hip fire, and does the same amount of dmg up close. I've lost to AEK's once or twice at point blank, but never a FAMAS (partly because no one's using it with the 25 round mag).

The PDR definitely loses out to carbines at range, even with the same dmg just because of it's poor ADS accuracy. The "two direction" recoil with the HBAR makes it only more difficult to use a range than a UMP45 (which only has a v recoil pattern) or the no recoil UMP-9 (even with the low end dmg). My problem is that with it's hip fire, it's clearly a close quarters, but I find it really doesn't have any noticeable advantage at close range over the CZ, UMP, Val, MP7 or carbines MTAR, SG553, and ACR thanks to a slower ROF. Of course, there are guns that are in a much worse position.

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Tuesday, March 18th 2014, 4:04pm

@Quercus
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What Rezal said is right. The SAR-21, QBZ series, and the U-100 all with <=650 RPM are capable of CQC engagements. It follows that PDWs with similar stats should do the same like the PP-2000 which has the added benefit of good hip fire and a high capacity magazine. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying RPM isn't an important factor in CQC, just that saying the slower RPM of the PP-2000 and their like are a death sentence is wrong.
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