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  • "shinryu" started this thread

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Sunday, March 9th 2014, 1:14am

compensator better for high horizontal recoil carbines after heavy barrel change?

so just throwing this out there after a quick look, but i'm wondering if the heavy barrel changes now favor the use of the compensator over the heavy barrel for carbines with a higher horizontal recoil. as an example, the heavy barreled M4 and M16A4 now have basically identical moving ADS spreads with the heavy barrel (.4675 vs. .468). however, the non-heavy barrel M4 with ergo has a moving spread of .55, while the M16A4 has a much higher moving spread of .6 with the ergo.

effectively, the bonus to aimed accuracy for the heavy barrel is about .09 degrees of spread for the M4, but .12 for the M16A4. assuming that recoil is uniform (for simplicity), the effective bonus to horizontal deviation for the second and third rounds using the compensator on the M4 is now about .0675, though the bonus to worst-case behavior is actually about .1 degrees. while there is a spread penalty and the first shot is less accurate, the compensator is very close in terms of efficiency on the second and third round to the heavy barrel for moving fire. this is even more pronounced if the moving spread is still effectively halved due to ADS speed, meaning the bonus to moving ADS spread is really only about .045 from the heavy barrel. therefore, it seems like compensators may be a better choice for some carbines since they aren't much good outside 40m, derive much of their benefit from moving accuracy, and the compensator helps hipfire as well as aimed fire. with assault rifles, however, the heavy barrel looks to be the even more dominant choice for the majority of them.

am i missing something here? i am not sure how the new .67 multiplier interacts with the other multipliers for determining moving accuracy, but if it's the same way that it seems to have always been i think my numbers are on. if i'm incorrect please let me know.

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Wednesday, March 12th 2014, 10:24pm

so after finding out the way the new multipliers are thought to work this is pretty much bullshit, unfortunately. standard carbines have effectively .425 moving ADS with an ergo and about .26 with an ergo + heavy barrel, so the difference in spread is about .165, pretty comparable to the stationary ADS bonus. basically, unless you have a carbine with about .7 or worse horizontal recoil you'll still be better off with the heavy barrel for moving ADS. that said, this means there are still several good candidates in the carbines for a compensator.

however, an interesting twist is that carbines are better than assault rifles at moving ADS with the heavy barrel alone (.3675 vs. .4015), so it may be more viable to run your carbine with a heavy + angled or heavy + stubby while still losing a minimal amount of moving ADS accuracy and retaining the full benefits of the extra stationary ADS.

interestingly, assault rifles are arguably a bit more friendly to the compensator now; with ergo moving ADS spreads of .4 vs. .25 with ergo + heavy barrel, any gun that gets between a .1 and .15 bonus or better from the compensator is a potential candidate. so the M16A4 and AEK are borderline, but the other high horizontal recoil guns are likely to be good candidates.

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Wednesday, March 12th 2014, 10:40pm

I don't know how the heavy barrel buff makes the compensator more viable. Wouldn't it, by definition, make the compensator less viable?

What the heavy barrel does make more viable is the stubby and angled grips, and the bipod. Due to the new moving spread bonus, the ergo isn't as important for run and gun players as it was before. You already get both a moving and stationary ads with heavy barrel, so the angled is a better alternative to the ergo to compensate for that extra v recoil the HBAR gives. The stubby + hbar combo gives your weapon spread reductions in every major area, which certainly makes it interesting.

Therefore, my answer is that the heavy barrel buff makes both the compensator (unless for FAMAS, F2000, etc group) and ergo less viable. However, it makes the other two grips more viable in turn.

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Wednesday, March 12th 2014, 11:00pm

yep. after finding out how the multiplier actually works in calculating moving ADS spread, that's more or less my conclusion in the second post, especially for carbines; you should always run heavy barrel unless you have ridiculous horizontal recoil, but you can run different grips and not be much worse off. assault rifles are the other way around: you can run any barrel attachment (other than the heavy barrel) with an ergo and have just as good a moving ADS as running the heavy barrel with the angled or stubby. they do lose a lot more than carbines when using anything other than the ergo with heavy barrel.

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Thursday, March 13th 2014, 8:12am

@shinryu
Could you compile these numbers into a table? You know, for lazy bastards with a short working memory span. ^^
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Thursday, March 13th 2014, 8:31pm

sure:

Weapon Class Attachments Base Spread Effective ADS Spread Moving Delta
Assault Rifle Heavy Barrel + other 0.1 0.4025 0.1445
Assault Rifle Ergo Grip + other 0.2 0.4 0.142
Assault Rifle Heavy Barrel + Ergo 0.1 0.258 0
Carbine Heavy Barrel + other 0.15 0.367 0.109
Carbine Ergo Grip + other 0.3 0.425 0.167
Carbine Heavy Barrel + Ergo 0.15 0.258 0

sorry for ghetto, it doesn't like HTML tables for some reason? and/or excel be stupid.

i'm not sure i have the bullpup modifiers right, let me check and i'll add those in. table does make the argument fairly clear, though; you have a pretty clear edge going heavy barrel no matter what the grip with a carbine, while you can go either way with the assault rifles and it doesn't make much difference to moving ADS.

you lazy bastards and your complex numerical simulations...

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "shinryu" (Mar 13th 2014, 8:42pm)


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Thursday, March 13th 2014, 8:37pm

>tables in Symthic
>happy debugging suckers
"Less is more? How can that be? How could less be more, that's impossible. More is more." Yngwie Malmsten
"Many bullets help." WoopsyYaya
"most rhetorically legitimate ad hominem 2015" ToTheSun!

  • "shinryu" started this thread

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Friday, March 14th 2014, 9:29pm

ok, think this is correct for the bullpup assault rifles and carbines. i'm assuming multipliers of 1.25 to base accuracy, .75 movement speed and .8 moving spread as these match the given numbers and what i found on the board, but if i'm off please let me know.

Weapon Class Attachments Base Spread Effective ADS Spread
Assault Heavy .125 .35
Assault Ergo .25 .475
Assault Both .125 .3
Carbine Heavy .1875 .43
Carbine Ergo .375 .5
Carbine Both .1875 .31

so basically, bullpups suck with the ergo but aren't terrible with the heavy, though bullpup carbines basically suck compared to normal carbines and assault at moving ADS. sorry, A-91. bullpup assault rifles are at least as good with the heavy as standard carbines, so you can go for a more mobile playstyle with the angled or stubby and still have good moving ADS. i guess bullpup carbines really need to go heavy barrel and ergo to minimize the penalties, or just go ergo and compensator and laser and exploit their hipfire. also, just for shits:

LMGs:
Weapon Class Attachments Base Spread Effective ADS Spread
LMG Heavy .1 .7365
LMG Ergo .2 .675
LMG Both .1 .41
BF LMG Heavy .15 .77
BF LMG Ergo .3 .725
BF LMG Both .15 .46

bullpup LMGs: eh, don't care about the QB-whatever the fuck it is enough right now to do it.

in terms of the carbines, i think this implies that loadouts for most of the 800 and less RPM carbines don't change too much. heavy + ergo still seems optimal for the AKU-12, M4, and ACE 23. the guns that seem to benefit the most are probably the SG 553, ACE 52, and especially the ACW-R; you can now run a heavy on these guns with angled or stubby and not lose too much performance. assault rifles probably still do best with ergo and heavy barrel, excepting bullpups that can exploit heavy and the other grips better now. compensator is a much worse choice now except for standard assault rifles and LMGs with high horizontal recoil. even then the ergo and heavy is much much better for moving ADS for the LMGs.

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Friday, March 14th 2014, 9:55pm

Would you be so kind to also do these numbers when under the BF4 suppression effect please? Having used HB + Angled for ACE52 it's great up until the point that you are suppressed, thinking of going back to compensator.

To clarify, iirc suppression doesn't effect Spread, but recoil. How do the numbers compare when you take in to account recoil and spread :D
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  • "shinryu" started this thread

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Wednesday, March 26th 2014, 9:23pm

ah, sorry for late reply: in short, this makes no difference to suppression. your are correct that suppression only affects recoil now, so your base spread is your base spread; at least that seems to be the current consensus based on tweets from DICE. so the compensator will be better in situations where you may be suppressed. interestingly, the suppression effect appears to be least intense at close range, however, which is when the compensator is most useful; short burst to the head will probably still be more effective with the heavy barrel rather than the compensator, all things considered.