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51

Tuesday, March 4th 2014, 2:16pm

Assuming perfect aim though what would be the optimal range for 3 round bursts, if you could control burst length with AK12 (80-100m)?

imho with HB your effective engagement range for a 3 round burst on the AK12 would be up to 100m. you are guaranteed a headshot up to 70m iirc anyway.
and from 60m the TTK is better than that of ACE23 and AEK. So 60m-100m is pretty effective.


this is with optimal aim. Aim and recoil control is actually one of my weakest points probably so for me, right now, the effective range is probably somewhat shorter, but only due to my shortcomings rather than the stats. still, it's pretty damn effective, because you can laser away at people from ranges, I often end up saying ... "wow that's far". just as you say "wow, that didn't take many bullets" after getting SCAR-H kills.
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52

Tuesday, March 4th 2014, 4:11pm

As i said before they are stacked in the sense that burst weapons don't have their inherent disadvantage. Their inability control burst length doesn't matter in relation to other guns if you also lock them all to 3 round burst. Not saying burst weapons appear great in the sims merely that they appear better than they are. And in the brute-force compensation tables HB has no disadvantage and MB has no advantage. Flinching just takes away some double head shots (and combinations of body and head shots) in the same short burst, more of a aim point issue but i would still assume it is a bigger disadvantage to 34-25 damage model weapons.

The tables can only represent something you can put a number on and if one wants to use them to assess 'better' or 'worse', the assessment has to be made keeping in mind the conditions for which the analysis is done. As if someone buys a car one the basis of low fuel consumption and then complains that it's difficult to pass others on the highway (because small engine).

Quoted from "Zergberg"

And in the brute-force compensation tables HB has no disadvantage and MB has no advantage.

What tables are you referring to? In the "No Compensation" tables, HB definitely has a disadvantage and MB the advantage because V recoil is fully considered there.

just as you say "wow, that didn't take many bullets" after getting SCAR-H kills.


:thumbsup:

I picked up the SCAR-H yesterday after a break of months and man that was literally what I thought so many times.
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53

Tuesday, March 4th 2014, 5:34pm

As i said before they are stacked in the sense that burst weapons don't have their inherent disadvantage. Their inability control burst length doesn't matter in relation to other guns if you also lock them all to 3 round burst. Not saying burst weapons appear great in the sims merely that they appear better than they are. And in the brute-force compensation tables HB has no disadvantage and MB has no advantage. Flinching just takes away some double head shots (and combinations of body and head shots) in the same short burst, more of a aim point issue but i would still assume it is a bigger disadvantage to 34-25 damage model weapons.

The tables can only represent something you can put a number on and if one wants to use them to assess 'better' or 'worse', the assessment has to be made keeping in mind the conditions for which the analysis is done. As if someone buys a car one the basis of low fuel consumption and then complains that it's difficult to pass others on the highway (because small engine).

Quoted from "Zergberg"

And in the brute-force compensation tables HB has no disadvantage and MB has no advantage.

What tables are you referring to? In the "No Compensation" tables, HB definitely has a disadvantage and MB the advantage because V recoil is fully considered there.

just as you say "wow, that didn't take many bullets" after getting SCAR-H kills.


:thumbsup:

I picked up the SCAR-H yesterday after a break of months and man that was literally what I thought so many times.
Well do you agree or disagree with the statement that using ACE23 or M416 you can get a better TTK with varying your burst length based on the distance to your target vs using a constant 3 round burst length? Do you agree or disagree with the statement that it's impossible to achieve 750 rpm on ak12 for the purposes of magdumping? I'm asking this because of your Analysis of BF4 gun balance and niches threads sims were used as a reference to why AK12 is comparable or even better than ACE23 or M416. When the aforementioned sims are used as a proof of the performance of these weapons am i wrong in saying that ACE23 and M416 are under performing and AK12 is doing fairly close to as good as it ever could in those sims?

None of the weapons or attachments in the game are balanced on the assumption that either vertical recoil doesn't exist or players are not able compensate recoil at all. So am i wrong in saying that sims based on either assumption shouldn't be given full weight when deciding what weapons and/or attachments you should use? When i say something is stacked i just mean that some aspect is slightly favored and should be taken in consideration when deciding what weight you give any particular piece of information. In practice for most people HB isn't as good as the comp tables say nor is it as bad as the no comp tables say and the same shit for MB just reverse the tables.

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54

Tuesday, March 4th 2014, 11:13pm

Well do you agree or disagree with the statement that using ACE23 or M416 you can get a better TTK with varying your burst length based on the distance to your target vs using a constant 3 round burst length?

Agree. Both the in-game knowledge and the brute-force thread show this.

Do you agree or disagree with the statement that it's impossible to achieve 750 rpm on ak12 for the purposes of magdumping?

Disagree. It is very easy to fire the burst-mode AK-12 exactly at 750 rpm. It would be stupid of course because spread increase.

I'm asking this because of your Analysis of BF4 gun balance and niches threads sims were used as a reference to why AK12 is comparable or even better than ACE23 or M416. When the aforementioned sims are used as a proof of the performance of these weapons am i wrong in saying that ACE23 and M416 are under performing and AK12 is doing fairly close to as good as it ever could in those sims?

Yes, you are wrong. ACE23 and M416 in those simulations are performing exactly as close to their best possible potential as AK12. They are just numbers and cannot take into account anything that isn't in the model. The numbers tell what is the mean statistical performance of the gun when the human contribution is factored out. It is up to the reader to use these numbers in an informed way.

Let's take an extreme example to find the most extreme differences between AK12 and ACE23: headshots out to 100 m assuming perfect compensation and an inter-burst interval of 100 ms. With 3-shot bursts, T100 are 740 and 806 ms for AK12 and ACE23 (niches thread). With 2-shot bursts, which should be used beyond 45 m, ACE23 gets T100 of 749 ms (brute-force thread).

Two things to note: even such an extreme case, AK12 gets an advantage of only 66 ms, which in game is really not that much. When ACE23 is used properly with 2-shot bursts, the difference is only 9 ms, nothing. Hence, these guns are statistically close to identical. A player wishing to benefit from the versatility of ACE23/M416 does not suffer from a significant statistical disadvantage when facing a player sporting AK12. If I felt balance suggestions were a topic worthy of discussion, I'd say AK12 burst-mode should be buffed.

Second, note that these are mean values and even fully disregarding the human-originated variability, there is a lot of statistical variability (see histograms in this post).

None of the weapons or attachments in the game are balanced on the assumption that either vertical recoil doesn't exist or players are not able compensate recoil at all.

And yet these analyses show that the guns are extremely well balanced. Whatever overall top-tier or lower-tier guns there are, the tiers are matched with difficulty or ease of use, respectively. Mostly.

Actually, I very recently ditched the otherwise ready re-analyses of the brute-force thread :| to replace the fixed inter-burst intervals with intervals determined by spread or recoil decrease to have a more in-game-relevant (usability-considering) model there.

So am i wrong in saying that sims based on either assumption shouldn't be given full weight when deciding what weapons and/or attachments you should use?

No, you are right. There are so many in-game conditions and player capabilities/incapabilities that cannot be included in such analyses already because one cannot put a number on them that the simulations can only support informed decisions, not make them.

When i say something is stacked i just mean that some aspect is slightly favored and should be taken in consideration when deciding what weight you give any particular piece of information. In practice for most people HB isn't as good as the comp tables say nor is it as bad as the no comp tables say and the same shit for MB just reverse the tables.

Ok, I interpreted 'stacked' as implying a bias in the analyses per se. :thumbup:
"Less is more? How can that be? How could less be more, that's impossible. More is more." Yngwie Malmsten
"Many bullets help." WoopsyYaya
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55

Wednesday, March 5th 2014, 5:55am

@3VerstsNorth

Yea i prolly should have started with that i don't have a problem with the sims themselves only how they are used at times. If you take the niches chart as it is, you could say AK12 outclasses M416. They have identical TTK to 35m and after that AK12's better recoil model takes over and M416 starts to lose. But if you were to give M416's user a free will to choose his own burst size he would be ahead of aK12 at shorter ranges and lose less at longer ranges and i would assume the point where AK12 starts to have a lower TTK would slightly further. On the other hand if you give the AK12's user a free will to choose his own burst intervals he would have an identical TTK at the shortest ranges with M416 choosing his own burst length, but i'm not convinced that's possible. It could be that i just have knack for jamming/clipping burst weapons, but i have not had success max rpm:ing burst weapons without occasional jams.

  • "Sablemike_92" started this thread

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56

Thursday, March 13th 2014, 7:41pm

Well I must say, after having used high recoil weapons for a while and now coming back to the M416, it's super easy to controll now, lol. Think I've evolved my recoil management to the point where I actually prefer to have a recoil to counter rather than having a gun that lies flat on the target. Feels more rewarding also...

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57

Thursday, March 13th 2014, 11:21pm

I've used the AK-12 (in burst mode) a lot more lately and I still find it easier to be productive with it over the M416. The variable burst length advantage of the M416 makes perfect sense in theory, but doesn't seem to matter in practice. For longer ranges, consistently 2 round bursting a M416 takes more effort than spamming the AK-12 in burst mode mindlessly. Ease-of-use is underrated around here. For shorter ranges, the 'full auto' advantage of the M416 isn't noticeable to me, because from my experiences the majority of CQ encounters are determined by latency and weapon fire mode or ROF don't play a significant enough role in determining the outcome.

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58

Friday, March 14th 2014, 1:46am

Well I must say, after having used high recoil weapons for a while and now coming back to the M416, it's super easy to controll now, lol. Think I've evolved my recoil management to the point where I actually prefer to have a recoil to counter rather than having a gun that lies flat on the target. Feels more rewarding also...

It's definitely a matter of how much FSR you're used to compensating for, too much and you go off target... too little and you will ALSO go off target. Calculating not just total first shot recoil but also first shot recoil per second (or in between bullets) should help tons in deciding if you need additional attachments to be able to burst effectively with a gun. Or if you should switch to a different gun.

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59

Friday, March 14th 2014, 3:19am

My personal preference

To date I have the most kills with it. Initially I liked it because of the reload time alone. But over time I became frustrated as various attachments never really seemed to improve my performance with it. I've recently swapped over to the F2000, AEK, and SCAR-H primarily. And I use the 416 with a suppressor, G-laser sight, and Ergo grip. It seems to work for me a lot. Having a suppressor alleviates the low ttk problems I have with it, as most players will just stare unobtrusively if their teammate drops dead in front of them and they don't see a dorito on the radar.

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