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Friday, December 20th 2013, 2:17am

Weapons That Need Rebalancing

I know that the bugs are more important right now, but I thought it'd be nice to at least list what should be done once that's all taken care of. There's actually not a lot of problems, too be honest. The game seems much better balanced than BF3. Just has a few minor things that I feel need tweaking.

Here's the problems I notice from my own experiences. Feel free to comment on my choices, or add more. Or create your own list.

----------
Guns:
----------


Pistols:

FN-57 / QSZ-92

Both have one less BTK than all over semi-auto pistols, with the only tangible benefit being a slightly faster rate of fire. Both should get a rate of fire buff, and the QSZ should get a recoil buff as well, to balance it against the FN-57, which right now is 100% superior.

M1911 / Compact 45

The M1911 is 100% inferior to the Compact, which has a larger magazine and slightly faster rate of fire. The M1911 should perhaps get a recoil nerf to make it a more accurate weapon, which could also compliment the 3x scope nicely.

DMR's:

SCAR-H SV

Has a relatively low amount of recoil, less than most other DMR's, but maintains the strong 43-30 damage model. Recoil or damage should be nerfed just a bit.

LMG's:

All

I think the LMG's need to have their spread values more like they were in BF3. Currently, they're as accurate as assault rifles when standing still ADS, but once you move, all hope of accuracy is lost. Sniper Rifles have better accuracy while moving. And while the Ergo Grip does help, I feel that they should at least have their ADS moving spread toned down to 1.5. If not all LMG's than at least the magazine-fed ones like the U-100 or RPK's, because otherwise those guns are absolutely useless.

PDW's:

CBJ-MS

This one needs a recoil buff or something, because it only shoots at 50 RPM more than the PP-2000, but kills in one less bullet and has way more recoil.

CZ-3A1

Needs its reload time to be slowed down or have its damage nerfed, because against the other 1000 RPM monster, the FAMAS, it outclasses it in everything but recoil. It has five more bullets, reloads WAY faster, and has better spread in everything but standing ADS. It's a bit too powerful for the time being.

Assault Rifles:

M16A4

Needs a slight recoil buff, because it has the same recoil as the M4, but the M4 has better spread in everything but standing ADS, while the M16A4's only other advantages are bullet velocity and dropoff. Needs to be a bit more distinct if it's to have any purpose.

Shotguns:

Hawk 12G

Needs to shoot the same ammunition as other pump shotguns, because right now its slightly higher pellet count doesn't make up for its lower damage, lower capacity, and lower RPM.

UTS-15

Might need to have an extra pellet added to the count, because its only advantage is its large magazine, which isn't that big of a deal since it only reloads one at a time and shoots slower than everything but the Hawk.

12G Pump Slugs

I think these lost their chest multipliers that they had in BF3, because you can't seem to OHK anyone at a reasonable distance, which negates their entire purpose. They either need that back or need to have their range just plain increased.

-------------------
Equipment
-------------------


Grenades:

M67 Frag

Needs to either have its fuse time shortened or its blast radius widened, because right now it has very few advantages over the V40 Mini.

M34 Incendiary

Need to be able to carry two by default or have the damage per tick bumped up to either 15 or 20.

---

That's all I got.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Ghost" (Dec 20th 2013, 2:30am) with the following reason: Added equipment and shotguns.


C0llis

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Friday, December 20th 2013, 3:05am

I agree that BF4 feels more balanced than BF3 when it comes guns, but there are a few things I don't agree with and some other guns that I also think need some rebalancing.

I don't think what the FN57/QSZ-92 need is a ROF buff, but rather a small buff to max damage (to help them cope with the Armor perk - all other secondaries, sans the .45 ones, have damage models that counter the Armor perk), and also a buff to min damage and maybe bullet velocity. These buffs are perfectly in line with the real world performance of the 5.8x21mm DAP92 and the FN 5.7x28mm rounds, which are designed to penetrate armor out to extended ranges (100 respectively 200 meters IIRC). This would make them more spammy and with less damage per mag than the 9mm handguns but with and edge at slightly longer ranges.

I don't think nerfing a good PDW to bring it more in line with the other PDWs is a good idea, it would be better if the others were buffed to match - the current PDWs are incredibly lackluster and are out of place pretty much everywhere in the game except for Lockers and TDM/DOM. Giving them all a buff to hipfire across the board would be a better way to go, since the current PDWs aren't that very good at the one thing they are supposed to be good at: hipfiring. The difference between 0.5 hipspread with laser and 0.75 hipspread with laser is pretty noticeable. The other PDWs could get smaller buffs to H-recoil to make them more competitive against the CZ-3A1 and UMP-45.

The G36C. This pretty much sums it up. To me it seems like it was destined to have it's normal 750 RPM but then DICE went JKLOL2GUDNERF, use ACE-21 CQB something went wrong somewhere. Buffing it up to 750 RPM (and adjusting spread increase accordingly would make it perfect: it would fit in nicely between the AK 5C and ACE 21 CQB, with each of them having it's own advantages.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

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Friday, December 20th 2013, 3:08am

These are some of the most vague and empty rebalancing suggestions I've seen in a while, and lack reasoning as to WHY things should be. "otherwise just useless" isn't a reasonable justification for anything either.

Well Done.

Quoted from "J0hn-Stuart-Mill"


This post by "TheMightyVoice" (Friday, December 20th 2013, 3:11am) has been deleted by user "theaha" (Friday, December 20th 2013, 7:38am) with the following reason: personal attack

Sheepnub

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Friday, December 20th 2013, 3:14am

there are some things in the last that i disagree with, but i'll ignore those (as you seem to do this from a good standpoint :)). But a few of them are blatantly WRONG and SUBJECTIVE....it hurts so much :'(

SCAR-H SV

Has a relatively low amount of recoil, less than most other DMR's, but maintains the strong 43-30 damage model. Recoil or damage should be nerfed just a bit.

The recoil is the entire appeal of the scar-h. An easy-to-use DMR.
HOWEVER, the mistake they made is that it's EFFECTIVE RPM (the speed at which you can shoot if u wait for spread to settle perfectly) is not lowered to compensate for it. It is both good and easy to use. The recoil isn't the problem
CZ-3A1

Needs its reload time to be slowed down or have its damage nerfed, because against the other 1000 RPM monster, the FAMAS, it outclasses it in everything but recoil. It has five more bullets, reloads WAY faster, and has better spread in everything but standing ADS. It's a bit too powerful for the time being.

you are grossly exaggerating this one.
The famas has a higher base spread, and lower FSM. The thing is, the recoil on the skorpion is good. The famas' recoil is the problem (a FULL degree of recoil, that's just bullshit). The moving spread of the skorpion is supposed to be low, it's a pdw and is made for close-quarter situations while being very limited in medium to long-range engagements. And it does that just fine. The 3a1 is fine, the famas is the problem.
M16A4

Needs a slight recoil buff, because it has the same recoil as the M4, but the M4 has better spread in everything but standing ADS, while the M16A4's only other advantages are bullet velocity and dropoff. Needs to be a bit more distinct if it's to have any purpose.

Both the m16a4 and m4 need to get buffed. The initiative of this proposal is simply wrong because they are eachother's counterpart. Just like bf3's m16-m4, or bf4's ak12-aku12. They are supposed to have identical recoil pattern.
The problem is that -neither- of these guns, in bf4, have a use. They are limited to burst, without getting an accuracy-advantage;and that's the problem. They should have their recoil reduced to about .35 total horizontal (maybe .3...but that might be a bit too close to the ak12). Currently these are one of the, rather few, weapons that have NO use



Anyhow, if I'd compile a list....
Most weapons in the game have got either an effectiveness-use, or are superior in ease of use. But the weapons I'm listing are the ones that are statistically inferior as a whole.

Assault rifles:
m16a4:
As mentioned it doesn't have the accuracy-advantage it should have. Comparing it to weapons like the ace23, m416 and even the scar-h the m16a4 is a blatant joke. It needs a major decrease in horizontal recoil, to make up for the limitation in burst. Just like in bf3: Accurate as hell, IF you can control it. Rather than the current "ok LOL guys...let's make this thing worthless"
As mentioned above, i'd recommend a .35 or .3 total horizontal (depending on how it works out, dont want to make it too accurate as the ak-12 is supposed to be the long-range gun against which the m16a4 should be inferior at range)

Famas:
1.0 total horizontal recoil is just a joke. It is WAY too much in comparison to the aek (while you already have the slower reload and smaller mag), and is extraordinarely hilarious in comparison to the skorpion (a 1000rpm AR that has more recoil than a 1000rpm pdw?). putting it at a .7 total horizontal should make it a better tradeoff vs the aek, while being (measurably) more accurate than the skorpion).
I'd further request a reduction in reload (by factor 25/30) to make up for the smaller magsize. The magsize is fine, you have a weapon with an extremely high-rpm so that's a nice tradeoff. But the reload is blatantly unnecessary

QBZ-95-1:
Currently, it has neither an effectiveness nor ease-of-use advantage over its closest counterparts other than being -slightly- better than the SAR-21. An increase in ROF (650->700) should be enough to bump it up to keep it all hipster'ish , and make it more accurate than the aug (which will have an easier controllability, due to the more symmetrical recoil). If you then increase the FSM by or .25 or .3 then you will also have a gun that is harder to use than the cz-805 to create a balance between those three close counterparts)

Carbine:
a-91:
Pretty much the same case as for the famas. Its bullpup nature is awesome, but it has WAY more recoil than the sg553 (which is mainly based on ease-of-use while being less accurate in comparison to the acw-r). Giving it a .9 or .85 total horizontal recoil (while keeping it balanced, i.e. 4 left 4 right, to maintain its predictable angle of compensation) should be enough to make it vastly inferior to the acw-r at range, while benefitting from the bullpup bonus, while bringing it much closer to sg553 (yet remaining slightly less accurate, to balance out the bullpup-advantage).

G36c:
.6 total horizontal...at 650 rpm...I just can't take this one serious, in the slightest.
Bumping it back up to its bf3-counterparts's rpm (750), and reducing its total horizontal by .1 would create an inferior version of the ace-21 that is vastly easier to use (due to the reduces vertical recoil)
If wished to keep its rpm at 650, for dice-logic's sake, i'd heavily recommend an extreme reduction in recoil to bring it closer to the ak-12. A .3 or .35 total horizontal would make it less accurate than the aku-12, while a reduction in reload-time (20%'ish (?)) would give it a distinct'ish feature

Type-95-1:
Fundementally the same change as for the qbz AR

PDW's:
P90: Okay, we get it dice. You wanted to make the p90 inferior to the JS2, and that's perfectly fine. But then at least give it an ease-of-use advantage. Reduce vertical recoil to .3, or maybe even .25, and you've made it a fair deal. You'll have created a weapon less accurate than the js2 (due to both hor. rec and FSM), that has (slightly) better hipfire, and an ease-of-use advantage.

CBJ-ms:

Inferior to the ump-9 at range, while being worse than both the js2 and the p90 (its 50-round mag low-dmg high-saturation counterparts) except for ease-of-use due to vertical recoil. A big reduction in reload-time (reload of about 1.8 or 1.9 seconds) would give it a use as absolute-saturater and ease-of-use pdw in its role.

Pistols and DMR's:
Not even going to bother. DMR's have been announced to get buffed, and I predict they'll be completely overthrown. All I would request is them to make a difference between the ease-of-use DMR's (ace53, scar-h SV and svd-12) and high-effectiveness rifles (mainly the m39). Make a clear difference between low-recoil, and high effective rpm (= rpm at which you can shoot each shot at the weapon's base spread).
Currently the scar, ace and svd DMR's have BOTH of those factors. And that is a fundamental design flaw, regardless of how inferior DMR's are in general).
^Note that this can only be successfully implemented if gotten rid of the visual scope/sight-recoil that currently all weapons have. High-precision weapons that are supposed to be used for precision, can't be used effectively in the 'skilled' way (= true effectiveness rpm, where the player has to keep recoil-compensation in mind to get the maximum result). It forces players towards the ease-of-use dmr's, that ironically will actually perform better when firing at the moment where recoil has 100% settled down (= slower than effective rpm, but infinitely more accurate due to visual scope/sight-recoil)

The pistols are pretty much all the same. You can clearly see they were really lazy with the balancing, as they (seemingly) attempted to make a handful of secondaries that are really easy to use yet very similar (for the "oh shit oh shit" scenario's). In that regards, i don't have too many complaints. If that is how they wish to do it, then whatever. But:
1) differentiate the m1911 (vs the compact45) and FN57 (vs the QSZ). We're talking about blatant outclassing in almost everything with these pistols.
2) Revolvers...okay, removed the bodyshot multiplier, reduced damage overall, reduced RPM of rex by an -extreme- percentage..AND give it a delay? Revolvers are much worse (which is not necessarily wrong, it's a design-decision) . However they decide to balance it -> GTFO with that scripted delay. It is annoying, it is useless, it doesn't improve the game and only serves as a source of sole frustration.




There are some other weapons that could use differentiating, buffing or nerfing. But these are the most extreme examples that have a very high priority with changes.

@themightyvoice
A nerf to a DMR, in their current state, would be justified as long as it serves the purpose of differentiating DMR's from eachother (rather than nerfing them in contrast of the entire weapon-spectrum). His call for the scar-h SV is, fundementally, wrong due to the execution. But the initiative of requesting a nerf to it is everything but unjustified when comparing it to, for example, the ace/svd-12 and m39 EMR.
It is, however, quite hilarious to see the ace53 wasn't mentioned together with the scar-h SV :P
"I put aside a few sceptics, the types of decency in the history of philosophy: the rest haven't the slightest conception of intellectual integrity."
Friedrich Nietzsche


Best of epic quotes :D

Spoiler Spoiler

Just realized it's 4/20 tomorrow


Thanks for the heads up!
*Logs out of Symthic in preparation*

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

>littlebird passanger, semi-auto frag rounds
>gunship OP

Meanwhile at DICE-headquarters during BF4's release:

I'm pretty sure there's a massive post-it on every desk "DON'T FUCKING TOUCH ANYTHING THAT IS ACTUALLY DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE DOING"

UCAV:
"Hey guys remember how stupid prenerf mav was?"

"Lets add c4 to it."

The World Champion went to China once.

They called me a Gweilo.

So I kicked a big fucking hole in their wall and let all the Mongolians in.

just thought I'd share.


The thought of Assaults running out of ACE 23 rounds mid firefight, Engineers facing the rear of an unaware MBT with no rockets left, Recons unable to...Whatever the fuck they do. These are the things that keep me up at night ;(


About hunturk:
I don't know what's funnier, the video itself of the fact that an unlisted video has more views than most of your normal videos :P

...


You just live to hit people upside the noggin with a Math Bomb, don't you?

[context] Maybe it's the UK's overly aggressive porn filter at work. After all, it does have the word "monkey" in it and monkeys have been known to have sex so...


Previously, at DICE HQ:
"Ok guys, the password is "epic dream worlds"; everyone take a letter and do your best to turn it into into something random that we can put into a picture!"


I assume a functional game (BF4) also.

Aww!
*pinches cheeks*
So cute!


But but but

He's a Youtuber ;(

There's no way he doesn't know what he's talking about

This post has been edited 4 times, last edit by "Sheepnub" (Dec 20th 2013, 3:24am)


GamerRevolution

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Friday, December 20th 2013, 3:42am

100% agree with everything here except the bit about the SCAR SV. The other DMRs need a boost, not to have this one brought down. Also I believe that the CZ-75 should have its minimum damage boosted from 13.5<15.4 and its max damage boosted from 27<32. This would make the CZ a more viable pistol option between the .45 cal and 9mm pistols. It would have the same min dam of the .45s but a max dam that doesn't give it the 3 hit kill power. The CZ-75 would finally have its place as a middle ground between the high dam semi-auto pistols and the low dam ones.

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Friday, December 20th 2013, 3:50am

I got the pistols pretty well covered in my thread "Handgun Buffs an Balance" (can't put link on mobile). I also got slightly butthurt at the SCAR SV nerf. That gun blows (DMRs in general suck). Just use the SCAR H (AR) on semi, it makes DMRs irrelavent.

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Friday, December 20th 2013, 4:37am

These are some of the most vague and empty rebalancing suggestions I've seen in a while, and lack reasoning as to WHY things should be. "otherwise just useless" isn't a reasonable justification for anything either.

Well Done.

Thank you.

These were just my thoughts, and I don't know what the exact numbers should be. If you have any ideas, feel free to share.

I agree that BF4 feels more balanced than BF3 when it comes guns, but there are a few things I don't agree with and some other guns that I also think need some rebalancing.

I don't think what the FN57/QSZ-92 need is a ROF buff, but rather a small buff to max damage (to help them cope with the Armor perk - all other secondaries, sans the .45 ones, have damage models that counter the Armor perk), and also a buff to min damage and maybe bullet velocity. These buffs are perfectly in line with the real world performance of the 5.8x21mm DAP92 and the FN 5.7x28mm rounds, which are designed to penetrate armor out to extended ranges (100 respectively 200 meters IIRC). This would make them more spammy and with less damage per mag than the 9mm handguns but with and edge at slightly longer ranges.

I don't think nerfing a good PDW to bring it more in line with the other PDWs is a good idea, it would be better if the others were buffed to match - the current PDWs are incredibly lackluster and are out of place pretty much everywhere in the game except for Lockers and TDM/DOM. Giving them all a buff to hipfire across the board would be a better way to go, since the current PDWs aren't that very good at the one thing they are supposed to be good at: hipfiring. The difference between 0.5 hipspread with laser and 0.75 hipspread with laser is pretty noticeable. The other PDWs could get smaller buffs to H-recoil to make them more competitive against the CZ-3A1 and UMP-45.

The G36C. This pretty much sums it up. To me it seems like it was destined to have it's normal 750 RPM but then DICE went JKLOL2GUDNERF, use ACE-21 CQB something went wrong somewhere. Buffing it up to 750 RPM (and adjusting spread increase accordingly would make it perfect: it would fit in nicely between the AK 5C and ACE 21 CQB, with each of them having it's own advantages.

I think those ideas are good. Although I don't think PDW's need to be buffed. They're all the best thing in close quarters next to shotguns, and that's what they're meant to be. Carbines and Assault Rifles are better at ranges, worse in closer ranges.

-cut-

Yeah, a RoF nerf to the SCAR-H would actually make a lot more sense. That sounds way better. I didn't mention the ACE-23 SV because it has more recoil, so I think it's more moderate.

I just worry that buffing the FAMAS will make it too powerful, although I suppose that it could work if done right. Chipping away a bit at the recoil might help.

I proposed buffing the M16A4's recoil to make it more controllable with controlled fire, while the M4 will be a bit better on the move and with hipfire, as it already is. Still, other alternatives could be pursued.

I like all your suggestions, especially the ones about the revolvers. The .44 Magnum is especially useless right now.

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Friday, December 20th 2013, 5:27am

SCAR-H SV

Has a relatively low amount of recoil, less than most other DMR's, but maintains the strong 43-30 damage model. Recoil or damage should be nerfed just a bit.

The idea that anyone would say a DMR needs a nerf boggles my mind but I don't see how the SCAR-H SV is any better than the other DMR's. Several other weapons have pretty similar horizontal recoil (which is what I'm guessing you're refering to since it sports the same 1.0 vertical kick that most of these weapons have), and the SCAR-H SV only has a 500 m/s muzzle velocity (third lowest of the bunch.)

Quoted

LMG's:

All

I think the LMG's need to have their spread values more like they were in BF3. Currently, they're as accurate as assault rifles when standing still ADS, but once you move, all hope of accuracy is lost. Sniper Rifles have better accuracy while moving. And while the Ergo Grip does help, I feel that they should at least have their ADS moving spread toned down to 1.5. If not all LMG's than at least the magazine-fed ones like the U-100 or RPK's, because otherwise those guns are absolutely useless.

Unless you were crouching or prone, the BF3 LMG's had more spread then you would have a with a BF4 LMG with a Ergo/Vertical grip. I think that's a pretty fair trade off for the major boost that the LMG's got between games. If run-and-gun is more your play style, just use that or.. I dunno, a carbine?

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Friday, December 20th 2013, 5:31am


Famas:
1.0 total horizontal recoil is just a joke. It is WAY too much in comparison to the aek (while you already have the slower reload and smaller mag), and is extraordinarely hilarious in comparison to the skorpion (a 1000rpm AR that has more recoil than a 1000rpm pdw?). putting it at a .7 total horizontal should make it a better tradeoff vs the aek, while being (measurably) more accurate than the skorpion).
I'd further request a reduction in reload (by factor 25/30) to make up for the smaller magsize. The magsize is fine, you have a weapon with an extremely high-rpm so that's a nice tradeoff. But the reload is blatantly unnecessary

Would that not render the AUG A3 useless?

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