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  • "shinryu" started this thread

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Thursday, December 12th 2013, 10:30pm

AK pattern rifles need nerf to 650 burst rpm?

so given the really, really good recoil patterns of both the AK-12 and AKU-12, does it seem as if the 750rpm burst mode is a balance mistake? the high burst RPMs of these guns make similar weapons essentially obsolete, notably the M16A4 and the G36C. while the AR rifles probably need improvements in terms of their base spread or recoil in any case, the M16A4 as is would look like a much better proposition next to a 650rpm AK-12 than the current incarnation. the CZ-805 also makes a lot more sense in terms of its higher horizontal recoil and lower muzzle velocity if it has a 50 rpm advantage over the AK-12. while the G36C really should be at 750rpm in any case, it would be embarrassed even at 750rpm next to the AKU-12 given that it has double the horizontal recoil. if the 750rpm G36C was next to a 650rpm AKU-12, that increased horizontal recoil might be a forgivable flaw.

no other weapons in bf4 cycle faster in burst than in standard automatic mode to my knowledge except the AK-12 family. while it seems as if this is accurate to the weapon's real life capabilities, in the context of the game it seems like a poor choice; DICE already had to nerf it down from its stated real-life maximum already for balance. it seems to me they should have gone further than they did when you look at the stats of the other weapons.

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Thursday, December 12th 2013, 10:39pm

It used to be 1000 RPM for the AKU, and that was reduced to 750, I recall that the AK12 had 1k on the BETA was 1k and then 750 on release.

From an outside PoV (don't have the game yet), I don't think that another RoF reduction is called for.
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Thursday, December 12th 2013, 10:45pm

If you nerf it to 650 no one will use it on burst anymore

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Thursday, December 12th 2013, 10:48pm

They originally had 1000 RPM in burst mode due to the fact that their real-world counterparts have 1000 RPM in burst mode as well. It was soon discovered that this was obviously completely over-the-top. The solution of 750 RPM is pretty sound. I would've preferred a solution like "let's settle for 850, still pretty fast, and just increase the recoil in burst" - I think that would have been possible. Taking the M4/M16A4 and G36C as measurement is balancing the wrong direction: The AKU-12 and AK-12 are not particularly powerful, especially on PC. They should in no way be nerfed, but the M4/M16A4 and G36C need an outright buff to be viable.

Also, the fact that the firing sound doesn't adapt to the burst's higher cyclic rate makes them a tad more difficult to use with effective 730+ rpm.
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I always believed science should be very hands on experience.

You should also answer this question I had posed in that thread: Would you be willing to pay your surgeon more if he was going to use a chainsaw for the opening incision of surgery? Clearly using a chainsaw isn't truly suited for surgery but that doesn't really matter. If he's "skilled" enough to be able to use the wrong tools of the trade, he should be rewarded for that skill right?

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Zormau" (Dec 12th 2013, 11:35pm)


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Thursday, December 12th 2013, 11:19pm

This doesn't need to be changed (again).

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Thursday, December 12th 2013, 11:25pm

While I can't use bursts weapons effectively, so I don't use AK12 and AKU12 much, I find that their burst RoF is OK since it is limited to users that change the firemode. If the majority of player do as myself and don't bother to do, then their burst RoF is OK.
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Thursday, December 12th 2013, 11:35pm

It's competitive and characterful without being too overpowered or an obvious choice. Burst mode has its particular uses and it's own upsides and downsides, so it's not directly comparable to a 750 RPM weapon that can fire at that fire-rate fully-automatically.

I really don't get your point about making it more similar to other weapons. That'd just be boring.
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  • "shinryu" started this thread

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Friday, December 13th 2013, 12:05am

i'm not really sure how adjusting the single exception to the rule makes them "boring" weapons inasmuch as "balanced" weapons, but if balance is boring...

part of the problem to my mind is that it would be difficult to buff the G36C and M16A4 up to competitiveness with the AK rifles without potentially introducing more serious imbalances. the muzzle velocity advantages over the very similar AKU and AK rifles are simply not enough to counter .2 degrees or more of total extra horizontal recoil. the M16A4 is even worse off in terms of the assault rifles because it competes with the AEK, which can burst-fire 100rpm faster while suffering only a .05 degree horizontal recoil penalty. losing at least .1 degrees of horizontal recoil would be something, but then it's basically a burst-fire equivalent to the ACE 23 and the CZ-805 is the new turd on the block. giving it lower base spread might be acceptable, but the overall ramifications of an assault rifle with .15 or .1 base spread could be severe. meanwhile, the G36C situation is difficult insofar as it has all three fire modes, so it's probably unacceptable to significantly decrease its horizontal recoil and also increase its fire rate, though reducing its recoil to AKU-12 standards and making it symmetrical would provide it a niche as an easier-to-handle burst carbine rather than as a complete failure of a weapon.

on the other hand, if you nerf the AK fire rate they don't lose any of the awesome low-recoil goodness that makes them so good at medium range, and they don't totally overshadow similar weapons any more. certainly the other guns may need some buffs, but it seems like reducing the AK fire rate (and increasing the G36C fire rate) is the simplest solution to the problem.

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Friday, December 13th 2013, 12:35am

On the contrary, slightly buffing the G36C and AR-15 derivatives would be pretty easy.

The G36C should have its authentic 750 RPM with a slightly higher FSM of 2.0 or 2.1 and a little more spread increase - about 0.91 like the AK5C - to keep it balanced against the ACE-21, which I consider the strongest all-round carbine. Problem solved, you now have a carbine that has almost the same RoF as the ACE-21 but trades a lower V-recoil for a higher H recoil at a considerably higher bullet velocity - some players will definitely like that. The AK5C retains its niche through combining a medium recoil pattern between the two with a lower FSM and faster reload.

The M4 and M16A4 need their ridiculous FSM taken down one or two notches. It shouldn't exceed 2.0, and their current values of 2.4 and 2.5 are insane for burst-only weapons that necessarily suffer it every third shot. You now got a good close to mid carbine with a very good RoF, very quick reload and good accuracy and bullet velocity.


Besides, why "competitiveness with the ak rifles" should be of any concern seeing as we have much stronger weapons to contend with eludes me.
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Of course, this ignores the non-constant cross-sectional first moment of area across the chest as well as non-constant material properties of the boob; it would be difficult to perform a more detailed analysis (as in, I'd have to have a shape function AND I'd need to derive a function for elastic modulus as a function of lateral breast coordinate) but whatever. It's 2am and I'm lazy.


I always believed science should be very hands on experience.

You should also answer this question I had posed in that thread: Would you be willing to pay your surgeon more if he was going to use a chainsaw for the opening incision of surgery? Clearly using a chainsaw isn't truly suited for surgery but that doesn't really matter. If he's "skilled" enough to be able to use the wrong tools of the trade, he should be rewarded for that skill right?

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Zormau" (Dec 13th 2013, 12:42am)


  • "shinryu" started this thread

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Friday, December 13th 2013, 1:13am

re: competitiveness, i am basically opposed to the idea of worthless weapons. guns should have niches that are meaningful, which the current versions of the G36C and M16A4 don't. much of this lack of niche is simply that the AK series guns do basically everything those guns do better without enough of a penalty to their RPM to justify it. then there's shit like the A-91 or the PDWs, but that's another story.

i'm not sure your proposed improvements to vertical recoil really strengthen the weapons meaningfully in light of their gross horizontal recoil imbalances relative to the other weapons. the G36C is at a full .2 degrees of horizontal recoil worse off than the ACE 21 and the AK 5C, and down .35 degrees against the AKU; not a good trade for reduced vertical recoil. players who want better vertical recoil and muzzle velocity already have the AKU-12, which also has better horizontal recoil to boot than the ACE 21 and better vertical recoil already than the G36C. meanwhile, the M16A4 is at least .1 worse in horizontal recoil than the other assault rifles in the class excepting the FAMAS and AEK, but it gives up significant RPM to those guns while offering worse accuracy for a marginal increase in muzzle velocity and RPM against the other assault rifles. it's just a bad gun. i don't think it would be overpowered to drop it to .3 right recoil or even .25 or .2, honestly, but then the CZ starts to look very unattractive. it at least has a slight edge in terms of vertical recoil and attachment versatility to recommend it now as an alternative to the M416 or AK-12, but if you give me 800 RPM and better muzzle velocity and less horizontal recoil and a MASS underbarrel on an M16A4 it's rendered completely worthless.

the question really is: even with a 2x FSM, would you use the M16A4 over the AK-12 and give up .25 degrees of total horizontal recoil to have 50 more RPM and 50 m/s muzzle velocity? i don't think that's a very good trade. at an even fire rate (and the worse FSM that you propose), would you trade .35 degrees of horizontal recoil for 50 m/s muzzle velocity to use the G36 over the AKU-12? that seems like an even worse trade.

for what it's worth, i think the M4 can be considered relatively well balanced against the other carbines; it fires significantly faster than the AK 5C while having a much better muzzle velocity than the AKU or ACE 21, and it also has better horizontal recoil than the SIG or ACW-R. so there's a compelling case for the M4 as a a good balance of muzzle velocity, RPM and horizontal recoil that simply isn't there in the case of the G36C or the M16A4.

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