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271

Wednesday, January 8th 2014, 3:47am

Whats interesting, I'm slowly losing the idea behind Assault rifes ...
in general, if you have the majority of your encounters inside 30m then the carbines do almost everything better than assault rifles; you're still in two headshot and one bodyshot range and the range is very close, so increased stationary ADS spread of the carbine makes little difference, while carbines have better moving ADS and better hipfire accuracy. this range could extend out to 40m (provided you use a heavy barrel) as you can still go for a three-headshot kill. however, most assault rifles are still in the two headshot and one bodyshot or five bodyshot range here, and the damage model really begins to hurt past this point when you travel into three headshots and change territory.

this actually makes the AK 5C much less impressive in my opinion, as it suffers in its optimum range relative to the other carbine choices due to a low RPM and its primary advantages of low recoil and high muzzle velocity don't help as much once the damage model starts to drop off. it's certainly an easy to use gun and feels much like an assault rifle. but there are better carbines to do what carbines do best.

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272

Wednesday, January 8th 2014, 8:33am

Whats interesting, I'm slowly losing the idea behind Assault rifes ...
in general, if you have the majority of your encounters inside 30m then the carbines do almost everything better than assault rifles; you're still in two headshot and one bodyshot range and the range is very close, so increased stationary ADS spread of the carbine makes little difference, while carbines have better moving ADS and better hipfire accuracy. this range could extend out to 40m (provided you use a heavy barrel) as you can still go for a three-headshot kill. however, most assault rifles are still in the two headshot and one bodyshot or five bodyshot range here, and the damage model really begins to hurt past this point when you travel into three headshots and change territory.

this actually makes the AK 5C much less impressive in my opinion, as it suffers in its optimum range relative to the other carbine choices due to a low RPM and its primary advantages of low recoil and high muzzle velocity don't help as much once the damage model starts to drop off. it's certainly an easy to use gun and feels much like an assault rifle. but there are better carbines to do what carbines do best.
Yeh, I went sleep yesterday, and I was thinking about that dmg model before it. I got exacly the same conclusion afterall :)

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273

Wednesday, January 8th 2014, 10:17am

wat

"Tens of ms" is an eternity in CQB, which of course is where rate of fire counts for the most.

Firstly, unless I missed something, the conversation I was replying to was not about explicitly about CQB encounters, but about carbines in general. Carbines are useful at a variety of ranges; in most situations, having a gun that is effective at more ranges is an advantage.

And actually if I'm reading the chart right, the ACE 21 has an advantage of less than 10ms out to 15-20m, at which point the AK 5C gains the advantage. Less than 10ms is not an eternity in any BF4 related context, it's less than 100th of a second. I'd wager you or I couldn't perceive the difference between 90ms and 94ms—and as a side note, neither can the server from what I understand, with its 30hz world-update tick rate and 10hz client-update rate.

That aside, my view is that pretty much every other factor that determines the outcome of a fight is orders of magnitude more important than a <100 RPM difference. Reflexes, aim, ping/network issues, positioning, cover, awareness, etc all will determine the outcome of a fight at least 9/10 times, and only in those rare instances where all of those variables line up to within single-digit milliseconds between you and your opponent does your small ROF advantage really win you the fight. So, a fight with no network-related imbalances, both players with the same exact reflexes (or at least, start firing at the same exact time for any number of reasons), same exact cover situation, same exact aiming skill; yes, maybe now your extra RPM wins.

I generally prefer to have the benefits of the AK 5C—first class reload speed and bullet velocity—than to cater to that (again, IMO) rare situation where a few extra RPM actually matters. Of course this isn't to say the ACE 21 is bad, I use it too, but I think the AK 5C is stronger in a greater variety of situations (i.e. out to 60-70m or whatever, where the ACE 21 is weaker).

Thanks for the clarification, but I was simply replying to the assertion that "tens of ms" is insignificant when considering TTKs :P As such I apologise for deliberately taking that comment out of context.

As a high-RoF weapon user I personally think "stacking the deck" in your own favour may not be enough to win you every firefight, but it is certainly enough to win some firefights that you should have lost had you been holding a slower-firing gun. And that is enough for me.

From shooting 'til saturation at walls the MTAR appears to have similar total h-recoil to the ACW-R, only completely symmetrical (I'd say about 0.8 degrees-ish total). What I can't handle though is the visual scope wobble that gun has, makes it unusable for me at mid-range+.

At long range the AK-12U is probably the best carbine choice, if you can get used to its burst-mode the RPM trumps the Ak-5C's which means it's decent at close-mid-ranged encounters too.
Try using the MTAR with irons - I almost always do, extremely open view and they're really good for its spread pattern. Scope wobble is truly terrible though, another useless downgrade from BF3.

The MTAR is as good as the ACW-R at this point in time except for its long reload. This will be less true when the minimum bullet damage is likely fixed, but that's because the ACW-R is pretty much the M16/M4 of BF4 when it's wielded properly - good at everything with no drawbacks.

I went ahead and picked up the MTAR again; using the irons helped somewhat in that I didn't lose my aimpoint as much. I think I'm addicted to the ACW-R by now though, was seemingly unable to kill targets at medium range with the MTAR that I was sure I would have gotten with the ACW-R. I put it down to the 25% standing spread penalty that bullpups get, but other people would probably call it either placebo or me being bad. :D

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274

Wednesday, January 8th 2014, 12:34pm

0.009 less spread per shot very small difference
Meh, technically it's a -bit- more accurate..but as you said, the difference is so freaking small a human being wouldn't be able to notice it. Plus, add in the higher ROF of the ace (which will, in its turn, increase bursting speed and saturation) and you've got an outclassed weapon really

They're both good guns, each with their own merits, but IMO minor differences in ROF are being given a bit too much weight if you think the ACE 21 "outclasses" the AK 5C.

I agree that the difference in spread increase is of only minor significance, but I'll reiterate the parent poster's point that the difference in ROF is not as significant as it might seem, as it results in a TTK difference of merely tens of ms. On the other hand, 630 m/s vs 410 m/s is an extremely large difference, best in class vs second worst in class. 250ms tac reload difference is smaller but still quite significant, and of course the empty reload which we hope to avoid (but can't always succeed in doing so) differs by 750ms, an eternity.

I was actually writing a post on the muzzle velocity difference yesterday but didn't have time to finish it. The velocity is the main culprit for ACE21 apparently not benefiting from its high ROF in comparison with AK5C. Already at 20 m (!), the bullet of ACE21 takes 49 ms to hit when AK5C hits at 32 ms - this effect roughly negates the ROF advantage. Of course, if you miss a lot of shots (as in CQB dance-master shoot-out), ACE21 can saturate the air with 10% more lead than AK5C. Higher velocity and lower FSM are, as far as I see, the greatest usability advantages of AK5C.

This is not to say I wouldn't like ACE21 - I've been playing with it, suppressed, and it's fantastic.
"Less is more? How can that be? How could less be more, that's impossible. More is more." Yngwie Malmsten
"Many bullets help." WoopsyYaya
"most rhetorically legitimate ad hominem 2015" ToTheSun!

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275

Wednesday, January 8th 2014, 1:27pm

Yeah from my experience ace 21 seems best when using a silencer.

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276

Wednesday, January 8th 2014, 5:39pm

As a high-RoF weapon user I personally think "stacking the deck" in your own favour may not be enough to win you every firefight, but it is certainly enough to win some firefights that you should have lost had you been holding a slower-firing gun. And that is enough for me.

Absolutely (although I stand by my statement that a <10ms TTK advantage doesn't win you nearly as many fights as you probably think).

While I'm obviously a fan of the AK 5C, I also consider the ACW-R to be a top performer and (after mastering the recoil) I find it easy to use the high ROF to devastating effect. However, while that improved TTK is certainly helpful, the gun is only truly top tier because the high ROF is backed up by extremely strong supporting stats: fastest tac reload in the game excepting sidearms and a very respectable 500 m/s muzzle velocity.


This is not to say I wouldn't like ACE21 - I've been playing with it, suppressed, and it's fantastic.

Yeah from my experience ace 21 seems best when using a silencer.

I also agree with this, the ACE 21 doesn't have too much to lose in the velocity department!

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277

Wednesday, January 8th 2014, 6:41pm

So a 60 m/s difference in muzzle velocity is going to matter more when engaging 20+ meters out compared to a 70 RPM difference in rate of fire? Does this no longer make the ACE 21 preferable up to ~45 meters (because that appears to be the zeitgeist).

Would this preference hold true for something more accurate, such as the AKU-12 in burst (still 750 RPM I assume)? It shows a mere 290 m/s velocity, but the low horizontal recoil, coupled with low vertical recoil and low FSM (LSM) is really testing my love for the AK 5c at range because it appears, theoretically, that more bullets are bound to connect with a target. I was competently dropping enemies last night from easily 50+ meters and it felt just as reliable as the AK 5c. But on top of that the AKU-12 burst is so much more reliable for me than the AK 5c at CQB.

(The area where the AK 5c seems to have the upper hand, and which I attribute to the muzzle velocity, is when targets are 50+ meters and moving nearly/completely perpendicular to my aim. But that isn't the usual situation during a firefight - and the AKU-12, while running into trouble because of the low muzzle velocity and leading necessary, isn't obsolete thanks to the overall accuracy and stability.)

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Wednesday, January 8th 2014, 7:38pm

So a 60 m/s difference in muzzle velocity is going to matter more when engaging 20+ meters out compared to a 70 RPM difference in rate of fire?

Aside from the last few offhand remarks about the ACE 21 being a good gun to throw a suppressor on, most of what's been talked about here has been unsupressed guns - my posts, 3VerstsNorth's, and the linked chart are all referencing base weapon stats. So we were talking about 630 m/s (AK 5C) vs 410 m/s (ACE 21 CQB), a difference of 220 m/s.

RE: the rest of your post-

I don't find the differences in suppressed muzzle velocities to be all that compelling, so I don't use the suppressor with the AK 5C. If you find the extra m/s helpful, use it, but if I'm considering suppressed guns I weigh other factors more heavily than the relatively small velocity differences. To be honest I use like 7 different suppressed carbines on a regular basis, and IME there's not a huge performance difference between them. The AKU-12 (burst) is extremely accurate, you can't really go wrong with it suppressed or with a heavy barrel.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "graedus" (Jan 8th 2014, 8:07pm)


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279

Wednesday, January 8th 2014, 10:18pm

Would this preference hold true for something more accurate, such as the AKU-12 in burst (still 750 RPM I assume)? It shows a mere 290 m/s velocity, but the low horizontal recoil, coupled with low vertical recoil and low FSM (LSM) is really testing my love for the AK 5c at range because it appears, theoretically, that more bullets are bound to connect with a target. I was competently dropping enemies last night from easily 50+ meters and it felt just as reliable as the AK 5c. But on top of that the AKU-12 burst is so much more reliable for me than the AK 5c at CQB.

Would this preference hold true for something more accurate, such as the AKU-12 in burst (still 750 RPM I assume)? It shows a mere 290 m/s velocity, but the low horizontal recoil, coupled with low vertical recoil and low FSM (LSM) is really testing my love for the AK 5c at range because it appears, theoretically, that more bullets are bound to connect with a target. I was competently dropping enemies last night from easily 50+ meters and it felt just as reliable as the AK 5c. But on top of that the AKU-12 burst is so much more reliable for me than the AK 5c at CQB.

that certainly matches my opinion; the horizontal recoil advantage of the AKU-12 over the ACE 21 and AK 5C is substantial (.15 degrees, which buys you about an extra 5m worth of accuracy or 10m with a heavy barrel), and the vertical recoil is much, much better (.24 vs. .36); even in burst mode it ends up with less total vertical recoil then the ACE 21 for nine rounds (2.73 degrees for three three-round bursts vs. 3.6 degrees for a nine-round burst). the vertical recoil is even still comparable with the heavy barrel (4.1 degrees for three three-round bursts) it also gets the 40 m/s muzzle velocity advantage over the ACE 21, all for only losing 20 RPM.

it's true that it will be harder to hit moving targets with the AKU-12 than the AK 5C. however, muzzle velocity also affects drop, so you need to hold over targets significantly more with the AKU at say 70 m (there's about a .11 meter drop with the AK 5C as opposed to the AKU-12 at .33 m). however, this is also one reason the AKU-12 may feel so accurate at range; there's a good chance that the lower muzzle velocity actually makes shots that would fly over the head of the target without good recoil compensation with the AK 5C drop back and hit if you fire the AKU-12 without recoil compensation.

i tend to think the M4 gives a better overall package than the AKU-12, but that's partially a bias towards the muzzle velocity (the AKU drops almost an extra tenth of a degree at 40m, so it's harder to land a quick first headshot reliably) and the extra RPM for close quarters. that said, i still really like the AKU-12 and it's easily in the top 3 of the class for me. i'd go with the ACW-R for 20m or less, the AKU-12 for past 30m and the M4 as a good balance.

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Wednesday, January 8th 2014, 11:30pm

I just finally registered an account here because I was wondering why people don't generally care for the Ace 21 CQB when it is essentially the carbine version of the vaunted ACE 23 (same recoil patterns and fire rate, anyhow) so it's funny to see people finally talking about it a bit. I started using it recently because it looked like it was a bit of a middle ground weapon between my 2 preferred carbines (the ACW-R and AK5C) because on the console I have some issues being effective at medium-long ranges with the ACW-R and prefer a bit more firepower than the AK5C brings to the table. It really does seem to be a great weapon with those extra rounds and a decent boost to fire rate, and as someone who runs a suppressor on every carbine the main advantage the AK5C has over it is more or less negated when you use one.

I still can't get into the Ace 52 though, for whatever reason when I use it I get a good 5% less accuracy on it than I do on other carbines, I am guessing due to the fact that vertical recoil is a bit tougher to manage with a controller than with a mouse.