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  • "Veritable" started this thread

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: Dec 8th 2013

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Thursday, August 18th 2016, 1:45am

BF4 BTK Burst Length DPS + Useability Combined Ranking

Methodology

This is my attempt to rank each semi-automatic and automatic primary weapon in BF4 (slug shotguns excluded) with each barrel + grip combination, on an equal footing but I hope does still represent the "average" BF4 experience.

Credits to BF4 Shooting Mechanics and my follow up with the Shoot-and-Recover Time Calculator, Hitrater, and of course all numbers come from Symthic BF4 Stats.

Each entry (gun + barrel + grip) is given a score out of 800 maximum, broken down thus.

Please note that for all scores, the best in the study receives a score of 100, then all other entries slot below.

Useability Group
  • Reload - 100 - to receive a good score here, the gun needs a combination of: fast tactical and empty reload speeds, large magazine capacity so you reload less often, and loading in highly damaging bullets so you are more confident to not reload after a firefight.
  • Velocity - 100 - higher bullet speed is easier to use at long range and / or vs. moving targets.
  • V-Recoil - 100 - lower amount of V-Recoil means the gun is easier to keep on target.
  • First Shot Modifier - 100 - lower multiplier keeps your vertical burst pattern consistent.


DPS Group

For DPS scoring, I simulated each weapon + barrel + attachment with Hitrater at various stances and ranges.

For the length of the burst, I settled upon what I suspect the most average BF4 player will do: shoot the average Bullets To Kill for your average engagement range, which in this study is 27.5m. Thus, regardless of Rate of Fire, DMRs shoot 3x, "heavy hitters" (.30cal GPMGs, ARs and Carbines) shoot 4x, normal ARs and Carbines shoot 5x, finally pistol-calibre PDWs shoot 6x. The only exceptions are the 3RB-only M16A4 / M4, which I manually set the burst length to 3RB x2 = 6RB, despite their damage models afford them 5BTK.

After shooting the BTK Burst, the shooter pauses to recover all Spread Increase. Once done, then the shooter shoots the BTK Burst again. This repeats until 1 Second has elapsed. The server tickrate is assumed to be 45Hz, which is what the current-gen consoles play at, and while such tickrate is rare on the PC side it is still a good average of those available on the PC.

To do well here, the gun + barrel + grip combination needs to have a good balance between the following: Base Spread for initial accuracy; Spread Increase + H-Recoil for additional shots accuracy; Bullet Damage to allow for shorter BTK burst length; Rate of Fire to get the burst done quickly and thus start the recovery process; and Spread Decrease to get back into the fight quicker.

The following ranges + stances were looked at:
  • Hipfire - 100 - 5m Moving + 5m Not Moving + 10m Moving + 10m Not Moving
  • ADS Moving - 100 - 10m + 20m + 30m + 40m
  • ADS Not Moving Close Range - 100 - 10m + 20m + 30m + 40m
  • ADS Not Moving Long Range - 100 - 50m + 60m + 70m + 80m


For the same weapon, all the scores for each of its attachment combinations are averaged out, and then ranked on that overall average score. Charts are produced for each weapon, showing the scores for each combination.

Please click here for the Google Sheets Spreadsheet with all the values and calculations used in this study.

----------

#1 Overall: "RPK-47" - Support


This is formerly known as the RPK-74M, but now uses the 7.62mm Russian damage model.

Hipfire Ranking: #39 | Move Ranking: #4 | Still Close Ranking: #6 | Still Far Ranking: #4


#2 Overall: AR160 - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #31 | Move Ranking: #1 | Still Close Ranking: #10 | Still Far Ranking: #7


#3 Overall: SAR-21 - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #16 | Move Ranking: #2 | Still Close Ranking: #15 | Still Far Ranking: #9


#4 Overall: RPK-12 - Support



Hipfire Ranking: #43 | Move Ranking: #18 | Still Close Ranking: #11 | Still Far Ranking: #2


#5 Overall: Type-88 - Support



Hipfire Ranking: #49 | Move Ranking: #20 | Still Close Ranking: #4 | Still Far Ranking: #6


#6 Overall: M249 - Support



Hipfire Ranking: #48 | Move Ranking: #11 | Still Close Ranking: #2 | Still Far Ranking: #11


#7 Overall: QBB-95-1 - Support



Hipfire Ranking: #33 | Move Ranking: #9 | Still Close Ranking: #13 | Still Far Ranking: #8


#8 Overall: L85A2 - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #18 | Move Ranking: #3 | Still Close Ranking: #14 | Still Far Ranking: #25


#9 Overall: AUG A3 - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #20 | Move Ranking: #5 | Still Close Ranking: #18 | Still Far Ranking: #21


#10 Overall: U-100 Mk5 - Support



Hipfire Ranking: #45 | Move Ranking: #24 | Still Close Ranking: #12 | Still Far Ranking: #1


#11 Overall: LSAT - Support



Hipfire Ranking: #54 | Move Ranking: #12 | Still Close Ranking: #8 | Still Far Ranking: #3


#12 Overall: SCAR-H - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #37 | Move Ranking: #6 | Still Close Ranking: #16 | Still Far Ranking: #16


#13 Overall: PKP Pecheneg - Support



Hipfire Ranking: #58 | Move Ranking: #13 | Still Close Ranking: #2 | Still Far Ranking: #12


#14 Overall: M60E4 - Support



Hipfire Ranking: #57 | Move Ranking: #16 | Still Close Ranking: #3 | Still Far Ranking: #10


#15 Overall: QBZ-95-1 - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #30 | Move Ranking: #8 | Still Close Ranking: #22 | Still Far Ranking: #22


#16 Overall: L86A1 - Support



Hipfire Ranking: #35 | Move Ranking: #22 | Still Close Ranking: #17 | Still Far Ranking: #14


#17 Overall: M416 - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #36 | Move Ranking: #7 | Still Close Ranking: #19 | Still Far Ranking: #23


#18 Overall: AWS - Support



Hipfire Ranking: #50 | Move Ranking: #10 | Still Close Ranking: #9 | Still Far Ranking: #17


#19 Overall: MG4 - Support



Hipfire Ranking: #53 | Move Ranking: #25 | Still Close Ranking: #7 | Still Far Ranking: #20


#20 Overall: ACE 23 - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #42 | Move Ranking: #17 | Still Close Ranking: #21 | Still Far Ranking: #27


#21 Overall: AK-12 - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #47 | Move Ranking: #23 | Still Close Ranking: #23 | Still Far Ranking: #13


#22 Overall: M16A4 - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #38 | Move Ranking: #14 | Still Close Ranking: #20 | Still Far Ranking: #29


#23 Overall: CZ805 - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #44 | Move Ranking: #21 | Still Close Ranking: #24 | Still Far Ranking: #24


#24 Overall: F2000 - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #28 | Move Ranking: #15 | Still Close Ranking: #25 | Still Far Ranking: #34


#25 Overall: M240B - Support



Hipfire Ranking: #64 | Move Ranking: #26 | Still Close Ranking: #5 | Still Far Ranking: #26


#26 Overall: Bulldog - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #27 | Move Ranking: #19 | Still Close Ranking: #26 | Still Far Ranking: #35


#27 Overall: SKS - DMR



Hipfire Ranking: #41 | Move Ranking: #30 | Still Close Ranking: #30 | Still Far Ranking: #19


#28 Overall: AK 5C - Carbine



Hipfire Ranking: #14 | Move Ranking: #27 | Still Close Ranking: #27 | Still Far Ranking: #38


#29 Overall: AN-94 - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #52 | Move Ranking: #29 | Still Close Ranking: #28 | Still Far Ranking: #18


#30 Overall: G36C - Carbine



Hipfire Ranking: #24 | Move Ranking: #31 | Still Close Ranking: #31 | Still Far Ranking: #39


#31 Overall: Type-95B-1 - Carbine



Hipfire Ranking: #12 | Move Ranking: #32 | Still Close Ranking: #33 | Still Far Ranking: #42


#32 Overall: Groza-4 - PDW



Hipfire Ranking: #4 | Move Ranking: #41 | Still Close Ranking: #48 | Still Far Ranking: #41


#33 Overall: AEK-971 - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #46 | Move Ranking: #28 | Still Close Ranking: #29 | Still Far Ranking: #37


#34 Overall: ACE 52 CQB - Carbine



Hipfire Ranking: #14 | Move Ranking: #33 | Still Close Ranking: #32 | Still Far Ranking: #45


#35 Overall: SVD-12 - DMR



Hipfire Ranking: #62 | Move Ranking: #46 | Still Close Ranking: #40 | Still Far Ranking: #15


#36 Overall: AKU-12 - Carbine



Hipfire Ranking: #34 | Move Ranking: #37 | Still Close Ranking: #35 | Still Far Ranking: #40


#37 Overall: AS VAL - PDW



Hipfire Ranking: #1 | Move Ranking: #47 | Still Close Ranking: #53 | Still Far Ranking: #47


#38 Overall: A-91 - Carbine



Hipfire Ranking: #9 | Move Ranking: #36 | Still Close Ranking: #37 | Still Far Ranking: #49


#39 Overall: M39 EMR - DMR



Hipfire Ranking: #56 | Move Ranking: #45 | Still Close Ranking: #34 | Still Far Ranking: #28


#40 Overall: PDW-R - PDW



Hipfire Ranking: #2 | Move Ranking: #35 | Still Close Ranking: #47 | Still Far Ranking: #54


#41 Overall: M4 - Carbine



Hipfire Ranking: #21 | Move Ranking: #39 | Still Close Ranking: #37 | Still Far Ranking: #46


#42 Overall: PP-2000 - PDW



Hipfire Ranking: #7 | Move Ranking: #34 | Still Close Ranking: #39 | Still Far Ranking: #53


#43 Overall: ACE 21 CQB - Carbine



Hipfire Ranking: #32 | Move Ranking: #42 | Still Close Ranking: #38 | Still Far Ranking: #43


#44 Overall: QBU-88 - DMR



Hipfire Ranking: #51 | Move Ranking: #48 | Still Close Ranking: #51 | Still Far Ranking: #32


#45 Overall: MTAR-21 - Carbine



Hipfire Ranking: #8 | Move Ranking: #40 | Still Close Ranking: #45 | Still Far Ranking: #51


#46 Overall: CBJ-MS - PDW



Hipfire Ranking: #10 | Move Ranking: #38 | Still Close Ranking: #41 | Still Far Ranking: #52


#47 Overall: Mk 11 Mod 0 - DMR



Hipfire Ranking: #59 | Move Ranking: #53 | Still Close Ranking: #44 | Still Far Ranking: #30


#48 Overall: SCAR-H SV - DMR



Hipfire Ranking: #60 | Move Ranking: #54 | Still Close Ranking: #43 | Still Far Ranking: #31


#49 Overall: UMP-9 - PDW



Hipfire Ranking: #15 | Move Ranking: #43 | Still Close Ranking: #42 | Still Far Ranking: #55


#50 Overall: SG553 - Carbine



Hipfire Ranking: #29 | Move Ranking: #51 | Still Close Ranking: #49 | Still Far Ranking: #48


#51 Overall: ACW-R - Carbine



Hipfire Ranking: #25 | Move Ranking: #50 | Still Close Ranking: #50 | Still Far Ranking: #50


#52 Overall: FAMAS - Assault



Hipfire Ranking: #40 | Move Ranking: #44 | Still Close Ranking: #47 | Still Far Ranking: #44


#53 Overall: UMP-45 - PDW



Hipfire Ranking: #5 | Move Ranking: #49 | Still Close Ranking: #52 | Still Far Ranking: #56


#54 Overall: SR338 - Recon



Hipfire Ranking: #64 | Move Ranking: #59 | Still Close Ranking: #60 | Still Far Ranking: #5


#55 Overall: ACE 53 SV - DMR



Hipfire Ranking: #61 | Move Ranking: #55 | Still Close Ranking: #54 | Still Far Ranking: #33


#56 Overall: P90 - PDW



Hipfire Ranking: #3 | Move Ranking: #52 | Still Close Ranking: #55 | Still Far Ranking: #57


#57 Overall: RFB - DMR



Hipfire Ranking: #55 | Move Ranking: #57 | Still Close Ranking: #57 | Still Far Ranking: #36


#58 Overall: MPX - PDW



Hipfire Ranking: #6 | Move Ranking: #56 | Still Close Ranking: #56 | Still Far Ranking: #60


#59 Overall: Groza-1 - Carbine



Hipfire Ranking: #23 | Move Ranking: #60 | Still Close Ranking: #58 | Still Far Ranking: #58


#60 Overall: MX4 - PDW



Hipfire Ranking: #17 | Move Ranking: #58 | Still Close Ranking: #59 | Still Far Ranking: #61


#61 Overall: MP7 - PDW



Hipfire Ranking: #19 | Move Ranking: #62 | Still Close Ranking: #62 | Still Far Ranking: #59


#62 Overall: SR-2 - PDW



Hipfire Ranking: #11 | Move Ranking: #61 | Still Close Ranking: #61 | Still Far Ranking: #62


#63 Overall: JS2 - PDW



Hipfire Ranking: #22 | Move Ranking: #63 | Still Close Ranking: #63 | Still Far Ranking: #64


#64 Overall: CZ-3A1 - PDW



Hipfire Ranking: #26 | Move Ranking: #64 | Still Close Ranking: #64 | Still Far Ranking: #63


----------

That's the overall list. Below, then, I'd like get into what I think can be called The Awards, where I get into more details, including specific attachment combinations. Generally I will give the Top-5 for each category, but will skip over some entries if there are too many repeats.

Best Gun + Attachment Combos Overall


#1 - "RPK-47" HBar + AFG
#2 - L85A2 HBar + NoGrip
...
#4 - AR160 NoBar + Stubby
...
#6 - Type-88 HBar + Ergo
...
#10 - SAR-21 MB + AFG


Best Assault Rifle + Attachment Combos


#1 - L85A2 HBar + NoGrip
#2 - AR160 NoBar + Stubby
...
#5 - SAR-21 MB + AFG
...
#8 - SCAR-H HBar + NoGrip
...
#13 - AUG A3 HBar + Stubby


Best Carbine + Attachment Combos


#1 - AK 5C HBar + Stubby (also best All-Kit)
...
#4 - G36C HBar + AFG
...
#12 - Type-95B-1 HBar + AFG
...
#16 - ACE 52 CQB HBar + Stubby
...
#23 - ACE 21 CQB HBar + NoGrip


Best DMR + Attachment Combos


#1 - SKS HBar + AFG
...
#11 - M39 EMR HBar + AFG
...
#15 - SVD-12 HBar + AFG
...
#24 - SCAR-H SV HBar + AFG
...
#26 - Mk11 Mod 0 HBar + AFG


Best PDW + Attachment Combos


#1 - CBJ-MS HBar + Ergo
#2 - PDW-R HBar + Ergo
#3 - UMP-45 HBar + Stubby
#4 - UMP-9 HBar + AFG
#5 - P90 HBar + Ergo


Best Support + Attachment Combos


#1 - "RPK-47" HBar + AFG
...
#3 - Type-88 HBar + Ergo
...
#5 - M249 HBar + Stubby
#6 - LSAT HBar + AFG
...
#13 - QBB-95-1 HBar + Ergo


Most Average Gun Overall and + Attachment Combos


Overall - G36C Carbine

With Attachment Combos - toss-up between FAMAS HBar + NoGrip and F2000 Comp + AFG


Best Hipfire Component Score


#1 - AS VAL (PDW, of course)
#2 - PDW-R
#3 - P90
#4 - Groza-4
#5 - UMP-45
...
#8 - MTAR-21 (best Carbine / All-Kit)
...
#16 - SAR-21 (best AR)
...
#33 - QBB-95-1 (best Support)
...
#51 - QBU-88 (best DMR)


Best ADS Moving Component Score


#1 - AR160 (AR)
#2 - SAR-21
#3 - L85A2
#4 - "RPK-47" (best Support)
#5 - AUG A3
...
#27 - AK 5C (best Carbine / All-Kit)
...
#30 - SKS (best DMR)
...
#34 - PP-2000 (best PDW)


Best ADS Not Moving Close Range Component Score


#1 - PKP Pecheneg (Support)
#2 - M249
#3 - M60E4
#4 - Type-88
#5 - M240B
...
#10 - AR160 (best AR)
...
#27 - AK 5C (best Carbine / All-Kit)
...
#30 - SKS (best DMR)
...
#39 - PP-2000 (best PDW)


Best ADS Not Moving Long Range Component Score


#1 - U-100 Mk5 (Support)
#2 - RPK-12
#3 - LSAT
#4 - "RPK-47"
#5 - SR338 (Recon)
...
#7 - AR160 (best AR)
...
#15 - SVD-12 (best DMR / All-Kit)
...
#38 - AK 5C (best Carbine)
...
#41 - Groza-4 (best PDW)


----------

Now we will get into the guns that respond the best... or at least is penalized the least... when using certain attachments. To get the rankings, I aggregated the scores for that weapon when using that attachment, then compared it against its overall average score with all attachments.

Best / Worst Compensator


A note on Compensators in this study. Hitrater does not seem to think highly on Comp, seemingly penalising it more for its SIPS penalty than for its H-Recoil benefit. Further, since I calculate DPS by the shooter having to pause to recover SIPS, in that scenario the Comp-equipped guns always have to wait longer. This effect is multiplied by weapons with high RoF and thus slow SDec, but they are often the very guns that have high H-Recoil as well. From my data, it looks like you are just better off running NoBar instead of Comp; but some people swear by them, so take for that what you will. Thus, Comp's main advantage in this study then is to slightly "center" extreme-pull H-Recoil. This is refected by these rankings.

Best:
#1 - QBU-88 (DMR)
#2 - ACE 53 SV
#3 - "RPK-47" (Support)
#4 - SVD-12
#5 - SKS
...
#6 - M416 (AR)
...
#9 - Groza-1 (Carbine, but you don't have a choice to not use it)
...
#28 - CBJ-MS (PDW)
...
#31 - Type-95B-1 (Carbine)

Worst:
#61 - P90 (PDW)
#60 - UMP-45
#59 - ACW-R (Carbine)
#58 - L86A1 (Support)
#57 - PDW-R
...
#51 - M39 EMR (DMR)
...
#49 - SCAR-H (AR)


Best / Worst Heavy Barrel


Since HBar HALVES initial Spread, you see the most benefit in PDWs and Carbines, as it is a HUGE improvement to go from bad / terrible to acceptable / good. Meanwhile, guns with good enough initial spread then sees little benefit, except in cases where the SIPS buff allows it to shoot again that split-second faster (M39 EMR HBar + NoGrip for example).

Best:
#1 - P90 (PDW)
#2 - CBJ-MS
#3 - UMP-45
#4 - M39 EMR (DMR)
#5 - MTAR-21 (Carbine)
...
#11 - LSAT (Support)
...
#14 - SCAR-H (AR)

Worst:
#62 and 61 - AS VAL and Groza-4 (PDW, but again it is not removeable so the improvement is 0%)
#60 - Bulldog (AR)
#59 - ACE 53 SV (DMR)
#58 - QBU-88 (DMR)
#57 - AR160
...
#54 - U-100 Mk5 (Support)
...
#45 - SR-2 (PDW)


Best / Worst Muzzle Brake


With a few nerfs over its BF4 life, MB is now relegated to guns that do not suffer from its SIPS penalty to cause the shooter to having to pause longer before firing the next burst. Thus, if increased SIPS can still be recovered, use MB. If not, use NoBar. It is just looking for instances where it does no evil, I guess.

Best:
#1 - SR338 (Recon)
#2 - SAR-21 (Assault)
#3 - U-100 Mk5 (Support)
#4 - AR160
#5 - QBU-88 (DMR)
...
#17 - AK 5C (Carbine)
...
#19 - PP-2000 (PDW)

Worst:
#61 - JS2 (PDW)
#60 - SR-2
#59 - MP7
#58 - PDW-R
#57 - MPX
...
#56 - ACE 52 CQB (Carbine)
...
#53 - Bulldog (Assault)
...
#50 - PKP Pecheneg (Support)
...
#36 - SKS (DMR)


Best / Worst NoBar


NoBar is recommended for guns that get hit hard by SIPS penalties when you run a barrel, but HBar is unmanageable. The "Worst" list, on the other hand, consists of guns that really needs HBar and / or MB doesn't hurt so why not?

Best:
#1 - SR338 (Recon)
#2 - FAMAS (AR)
#3 - M39 EMR (DMR)
#4 - Mk11 Mod 0
#5 - L86A1 (Support)
...
#20 - ACW-R (Carbine)
...
#44 - MP7 (PDW)

Worst:
#61 - UMP-9 (PDW)
#60 - P90
#59 - CBJ-MS
#58 - UMP-45
#57 - MPX
...
#53 - MTAR-21 (Carbine)
...
#52 - SKS (DMR)
...
#49 - SCAR-H (AR)
...
#43 - "RPK-47" (Support)


Best / Worst Suppressor


The reason why I wanted to do this attachments effects list is actually to find out which are the best and worst guns to Suppress. As long suspected, PDWs are the best, with their already-low Velocity and already-great Hipfire, allowing them to shrug off both of Suppressor's penalties. For other classes, look for low Velocity and Bullpup.

Best:
#1 and 2 - Groza-4 and AS VAL (PDW, but once again it is not removeable so the penalty is 0%)
#3 - SR-2
#4 - MPX
#5 - UMP-45
#6 - JS2
...
#7 - ACE 52 CQB (Carbine)
...
#11 - Bulldog (AR)
...
#21 - SKS (DMR)
...
#25 - PKP Pecheneg (Support)

Worst:
#63 - QBU-88 (DMR)
#62 - U-100 Mk5 (Support)
#61 - AN-94 (AR)
#60 - M39 EMR
#59 - AEK-971
...
#41 - AK 5C (Carbine)
...
#29 - CBJ-MS (PDW)


Best / Worst Angled Foregrip


Recommend AFG for guns with already low FSM and also relatively fast SDec so you are not better off with NoGrip. The latter point is why guns that REALLY benefit from NoGrip / Stubby, such as FAMAS / CZ-3A1 / MTAR-21, are on the Worst list. Yes they tend to have high FSM so you'd think AFG would help, but unfortunately running any grip will kill SDec and thus your DPS overall.

Best:
#1 - SVD-12 (DMR)
#2 - ACE 53 SV
#3 - QBU-88
#4 - SKS
#5 - RFB
...
#8 - RPK-12 (Support)
...
#11 - SAR-21 (AR)
...
#13 - Groza-4 (PDW)
...
#14 - Type-95B-1 (Carbine)

Worst:
#56 - FAMAS (AR)
#55 - CZ-3A1 (PDW)
#54 - F2000
#53 - AEK-971
#51 - MTAR-21 (Carbine)
...
#43 - MG4 (Support)
...
#9 - M39 EMR (DMR)


Best / Worst Ergo Grip


Support GPMGs and LMGs are SO BAD at Moving, that since Ergo applies a percentage buff like the HBar, when you start with a big number, the buff is also huge. As AFG above, the Worst list consists of guns that really should run NoGrip due to Shooting Mechanic DPS issues.

Best:
#1 - PKP Pecheneg (Support)
#2 - RPK-12
#3 - U-100 Mk5
#4 - QBB-95-1
#5 - LSAT
...
#12 - AN-94 (AR)
...
#14 to #20 - all the built-in Ergo Grip PDWs, with 0% improvement / penalty
...
#25 - Type-95B-1 (Carbine)
...
#28 - SVD-12 (DMR)
...
#35 - UMP-9 (PDW)

Worst:
#62 - FAMAS (AR)
#61 - CZ-3A1 (PDW)
#60 - Groza-4
#59 - MTAR-21 (Carbine)
#58 - AS VAL
...
#50 - M39 EMR (DMR)


Best / Worst NoGrip


The decision to run NoGrip comes down to whether or not the any-grip SDec penalty will cause you to have to wait longer to recover or not. If massively YES, then it is on the Best list. If NO, then you can run any grip, and it will be on the Worst list.

Best:
#1 - FAMAS (AR)
#2 - CZ-3A1 (PDW)
#3 - MTAR-21 (Carbine)
#4 - AEK-971
#5 - F2000
...
#27 - QBU-88 (DMR)
...
#30 - AWS (Support)

Worst:
#56 - RPK-12 (Support)
#55 - LSAT
#54 - QBB-95-1
#53 - AN-94 (AR)
#52 - M60E4
...
#51 - SVD-12 (DMR)
...
#44 - G36C (Carbine)
...
#33 - UMP-9 (PDW)


Best / Worst Stubby Grip


Guns that benefit from NoGrip, due to the natures of their stats, usually benefit from Stubby as well. Effectively you gain in-burst hit rate with Stubby, or you gain faster SDec in order to shoot the next burst faster with NoGrip. I will take this opportunity to note that, for the Best Stubby list below, the AS VAL, L86A1, ACE 52 CQB and M39 EMR are actually better in my criteria with Stubby. The top 2, CZ-3A1 and FAMAS, are still better with NoGrip.

Best:
#1 - CZ-3A1 (PDW)
#2 - FAMAS (AR)
#3 - AS VAL
#4 - L86A1 (Support)
#5 - ACE 52 CQB (Carbine)
...
#15 - M39 EMR (DMR)

Worst:
#55 - PKP Pecheneg (Support)
#54 - QBU-88 (DMR)
#53 - U-100 Mk5
#52 - ACE 53 SV
#51 - RPK-12
...
#45 - SAR-21 (AR)
...
#38 - Type-95B-1 (Carbine)
...
#31 - UMP-45 (PDW)

elementofprgress

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2

Thursday, August 18th 2016, 5:19am

Nice work, I love stuff like this

Useability Group

Reload - 100 - to receive a good score here, the gun needs a combination of: fast tactical and empty reload speeds, large magazine capacity so you reload less often, and loading in highly damaging bullets so you are more confident to not reload after a firefight.
Velocity - 100 - higher bullet speed is easier to use at long range and / or vs. moving targets.
V-Recoil - 100 - lower amount of V-Recoil means the gun is easier to keep on target.
First Shot Modifier - 100 - lower multiplier keeps your vertical burst pattern consistent.


Have you thought about different ways to apply weight to the scores? I mean in terms of usability in game reload is surely not as important as FSM and V-Recoil, or is there a reason you decided to go with even wight distribution?

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Thursday, August 18th 2016, 6:21am

Have you thought about different ways to apply weight to the scores? I mean in terms of usability in game reload is surely not as important as FSM and V-Recoil, or is there a reason you decided to go with even wight distribution?

Yes of course, but too subjective. For the Reload example, I am an exclusive DMR player. So, when I get to 5 rounds remaining, due to its damage model of 3BTK, I probably will not reload if there are targets remaining, because I know I can fairly confidently get 1 more kill. For the same 5 rounds remaining for a Carbine, with its 5-7BTK, then I'd probably hit that R key. For you, though, it will probably be different.

Another point of contention is V-Recoil and FSM, as you mentioned. I am purely a pub player, and thus I rarely have to shoot at exclusive head-glitchers. Thus, my response to people wondering how I "deal" with the insane V-Recoil of M39 EMR HBar + NoGrip, because I always aim center-mass of targets out in the open, is to... aim lower. This way the recoil pattern covers the target longer. Again, I fully understand the importance of FSM vs. head-glitchers; so I'll freely admit that my "list" is more helpful to pub plebes ;)

In the end, though, I keep checking the rankings against my personal in-game experience. And, even though I only have "extensive" experience with DMRs and some Carbines, I am fairly happy with how the system ranked things out. "RPK-47" HBar + AFG and AR160 NoBar + Stubby on top (seriously, they are FRACTIONALLY apart). Support LMGs and 700-750RPM ARs dominate the task of dealing damage. PDWs are best at Hipfire. Box-fed GPMGs and LMGs are best for 10-40m stationary ratatatatata (ie, Locker / Metro). SKS and AK 5C right next to each other (my performance with both is remarkably similar).

If I weigh V-Recoil more, then I have to declare (even though it means very little coming from me, I admit) the SAR-21 as the best gun... and even _I_ know that conclusion will not be accepted :P

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Thursday, August 18th 2016, 7:18am

Sorry for double-post, but maybe this is a better explanation as to why I weighed them equally:

When I couldn't shoot my gun because it was empty, I wish it had faster reload / higher capacity.

When I try to hit ADADADAD guy with my gun, I wish it had faster velocity.

When I hit the first 2 shots with my gun but miss the 3rd and 4th and 5th, I wish it had lower V-Recoil.

When I aim for the head with my gun and gets a headshot but misses all the follow-up shots high despite pulling down on my mouse, I wish it had 1x FSM.

In my personal experience I seem to make those wishes quite equally... so I just weighed them equally 8)

That, or I'm wishing too much :P

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Thursday, August 18th 2016, 8:58am

Have you thought about different ways to apply weight to the scores? I mean in terms of usability in game reload is surely not as important as FSM and V-Recoil, or is there a reason you decided to go with even wight distribution?

Yes of course, but too subjective. For the Reload example, I am an exclusive DMR player. So, when I get to 5 rounds remaining, due to its damage model of 3BTK, I probably will not reload if there are targets remaining, because I know I can fairly confidently get 1 more kill. For the same 5 rounds remaining for a Carbine, with its 5-7BTK, then I'd probably hit that R key. For you, though, it will probably be different.

Another point of contention is V-Recoil and FSM, as you mentioned. I am purely a pub player, and thus I rarely have to shoot at exclusive head-glitchers. Thus, my response to people wondering how I "deal" with the insane V-Recoil of M39 EMR HBar + NoGrip, because I always aim center-mass of targets out in the open, is to... aim lower. This way the recoil pattern covers the target longer. Again, I fully understand the importance of FSM vs. head-glitchers; so I'll freely admit that my "list" is more helpful to pub plebes ;)

In the end, though, I keep checking the rankings against my personal in-game experience. And, even though I only have "extensive" experience with DMRs and some Carbines, I am fairly happy with how the system ranked things out. "RPK-47" HBar + AFG and AR160 NoBar + Stubby on top (seriously, they are FRACTIONALLY apart). Support LMGs and 700-750RPM ARs dominate the task of dealing damage. PDWs are best at Hipfire. Box-fed GPMGs and LMGs are best for 10-40m stationary ratatatatata (ie, Locker / Metro). SKS and AK 5C right next to each other (my performance with both is remarkably similar).
...


Don't get me wrong, I never said it would have been easy lol

I didn't think of the BTK factor with stuff like DMRs. and if you did weight stuff things like that would be sprinkled everywhere when thinking of how to weight things.

I think FSM is generally more important then many probably do. Not just for vs head-glitches but in general.
Looking at AEK and SAR. We give both V-Recoil of..0.2 doesn't matter we just care about the effect FSM has.

0.2 * 2.55 = 0.51
5th around recoil doesn't matter because its recoil comes after the bullet is fired
0.51 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2 = 1.11 total recoil
The shot with FSM is 45.9% of the total accumulated recoil
The FSM itself adds 0.31 degrees of vertical recoil. That's 27.9% . Over 1/4 of the total

0.2 * 1.8 = 0.36
5th around recoil doesn't matter because its recoil comes after the bullet is fired
0.36 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2 = 1.11 total recoil
The shot with FSM is 37.5% of the total accumulated recoil
The FSM itself adds 0.16 degrees of vertical recoil. That's 16.6% .


Guns with higher FSM go hand in hand(most the time) with higher RPM. in this case 900RPM vs 600RPM
5 rounds at 900 RPM is 333 ms
5 rounds at 600 RPM is 500ms

So if connected more FSM means more recoil to account for in less time, this case 167ms less time.
(dear god someone check my math and for that matter my overall logic...its like 3am)


If I weigh V-Recoil more, then I have to declare (even though it means very little coming from me, I admit) the SAR-21 as the best gun... and even _I_ know that conclusion will not be accepted :P


Yeah, SAR-21 is pretty much good for one thing which its great at. However I think that conclusion would be reach and has been reached in the past is because V-recoil on its own means....nothing. Recoil in general is all about the ROF its paired with. Two guns shoot for one second. Both have 0.3 V-recoil. One gun's ROF is 500 the other ROF is 1000. After one second the total accumulated recoil that would need to be compensated for with the 1000RPM weapon would be double that of the 500.

Hmm...What writing this had lead me to two things. Firstly, thinking of ways to weight things like FSM, V-Recoil, etc is REALLY REALLY complicated for FAR more reasons both of us have stated. Secondly, that maybe ROF should be considered when thinking about usability not just DPS. ROF is a weird variable. In just a 5 round burst it would decrees usability but in game tends to increase usability because you can get more chances to not miss all while also part of DPS.

Also, #1 - L85A2 HBar + NoGrip. Dead on. My favorite I'm being lazy but still want to be effective loadout.

Edit: saw this after my post.

In my personal experience I seem to make those wishes quite equally... so I just weighed them equally 8)

I like this logic

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Thursday, August 18th 2016, 10:12am

Also, #1 - L85A2 HBar + NoGrip. Dead on. My favorite I'm being lazy but still want to be effective loadout.

In case anyone asks, why NoGrip? Why not Ergo, AFG or Stubby?

According to my Shoot-and-Recover Calculator, running either Ergo or AFG (and thus suffering SDec penalty) while shooting 5RB causes a reduction in Effective Firing Rate in the 45Hz environment that I based the rankings on. Ergo's ADS - Moving and Hipfire - Moving buffs, AFG's FSM reduction, and Stubby's in-burst hitrate improvement, according to my criteria, none of them make up the higher Effective Firing Rate that NoGrip affords you.

Stubby's reduced amount of SIPS to recover from, unfortunately, still doesn't outweigh its SDec penalty... in this case of 45Hz environment.

L85A2 HBar + NoGrip: 715RPM effective vs. HBar + AFG / Ergo: 675RPM effective vs. HBar + Stubby: 675RPM effective

Thus, in 45Hz environment, for maximum DPS with 5RB-then-recover, run NoGrip. If you need to run a grip, then it is totally up to you if you want AFG, Ergo or Stubby; the gun will shoot the same, your choice if you want FSM buff or moving buffs or in-burst SIPS buff.

-----

HOWEVER, if you play on PC, I haven't seen "45Hz" servers too often. 40Hz is a lot more common... and the recommendation do change here.

HBar + NoGrip: 710RPM vs. HBar + AFG / Ergo: 670RPM vs. HBar + Stubby: 710RPM

In 40Hz, Stubby's SIPS buff now can counter its SDec penalty. Thus, NoGrip no longer provides you with an advantage... you should run Stubby for its in-burst hitrate improvement.

-----

What about the bad old days when servers ran at 30Hz? Some servers, especially CQL ones, still run at 30Hz after all.

HBar + NoGrip: 695RPM vs. HBar + AFG / Ergo: 695RPM vs. HBar + Stubby: 695RPM

Again, NoGrip is no longer recommended... meanwhile AFG / Ergo also now no longer convey a penalty. I guess this is where L85A2 HBar + AFG comes from, especially with the old AFG that brought its FSM down to near-1x.

-----

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Thursday, August 18th 2016, 10:58am

Hmm wonder if some people would be interested in reading certain stance+range setup. The current graph style gives good view of sum of all of those, but some could be just interested to "moving" or "close".

Will you be doing these for BF1 too btw (in case it has attachments)? I'll probably do beta charts for BF1 weapons like we had for SWBF.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • InterimAegis - Weapon comparisons/scoring.
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • pmax - Statistical analysis of BF4 players/games.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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Thursday, August 18th 2016, 9:03pm

Hmm wonder if some people would be interested in reading certain stance+range setup. The current graph style gives good view of sum of all of those, but some could be just interested to "moving" or "close".

If you open each of the spoiler'ed weapons in the main rankings list, I do put in where the weapon ranks in each of the 4 components. For example, the one I declared to be "most average," the G36C, is "Hipfire Ranking: #24 | Move Ranking: #31 | Still Close Ranking: #31 | Still Far Ranking: #39"

Then, to further that a bit more, in the 2nd section, the last 4 spoiler'ed lists have the top 5 ranking weapons for each component, plus tops for each class if they didn't make it into the top 5.

I agree that perhaps that should be expanded even further, though. So, here are the full rankings for each component.

Hipfire Component Score Ranking - Full


  1. ASVAL
  2. PDWR
  3. P90
  4. Groza4
  5. UMP45
  6. MPX
  7. PP2000
  8. MTAR
  9. A91
  10. CBJMS
  11. SR2
  12. Type95
  13. Ak5C
  14. ACE52
  15. UMP9
  16. SAR21
  17. MX4
  18. L85A2
  19. MP7
  20. AUG
  21. M4
  22. JS2
  23. Groza1
  24. G36C
  25. ACW
  26. CZ3A1
  27. Bulldog
  28. F2000
  29. SG553
  30. QBZ95
  31. AR160
  32. ACE21
  33. QBB95
  34. AKU12
  35. L86A1
  36. M416
  37. SCARH
  38. M16A4
  39. RPK47
  40. FAMAS
  41. SKS
  42. ACE23
  43. RPK12
  44. CZ805
  45. U100
  46. AEK971
  47. AK12
  48. M249
  49. Type88
  50. AWS
  51. QBU88
  52. AN94
  53. MG4
  54. LSAT
  55. RFB
  56. M39
  57. M60E4
  58. PKP
  59. Mk11
  60. SCARHSV
  61. ACE53
  62. SVD12
  63. M240B
  64. SR338

ADS Moving Component Score Ranking - Full


  1. AR160
  2. SAR21
  3. L85A2
  4. RPK47
  5. AUG
  6. SCARH
  7. M416
  8. QBZ95
  9. QBB95
  10. AWS
  11. M249
  12. LSAT
  13. PKP
  14. M16A4
  15. F2000
  16. M60E4
  17. ACE23
  18. RPK12
  19. Bulldog
  20. Type88
  21. CZ805
  22. L86A1
  23. AK12
  24. U100
  25. MG4
  26. M240B
  27. Ak5C
  28. AEK971
  29. AN94
  30. SKS
  31. G36C
  32. Type95
  33. ACE52
  34. PP2000
  35. PDWR
  36. A91
  37. AKU12
  38. CBJMS
  39. M4
  40. MTAR
  41. Groza4
  42. ACE21
  43. UMP9
  44. FAMAS
  45. M39
  46. SVD12
  47. ASVAL
  48. QBU88
  49. UMP45
  50. ACW
  51. SG553
  52. P90
  53. Mk11
  54. SCARHSV
  55. ACE53
  56. MPX
  57. RFB
  58. MX4
  59. SR338
  60. Groza1
  61. SR2
  62. MP7
  63. JS2
  64. CZ3A1

ADS Not Moving Close Range Component Ranking - Full


  1. PKP
  2. M249
  3. M60E4
  4. Type88
  5. M240B
  6. RPK47
  7. MG4
  8. LSAT
  9. AWS
  10. AR160
  11. RPK12
  12. U100
  13. QBB95
  14. L85A2
  15. SAR21
  16. SCARH
  17. L86A1
  18. AUG
  19. M416
  20. M16A4
  21. ACE23
  22. QBZ95
  23. AK12
  24. CZ805
  25. F2000
  26. Bulldog
  27. Ak5C
  28. AN94
  29. AEK971
  30. SKS
  31. G36C
  32. ACE52
  33. Type95
  34. M39
  35. AKU12
  36. M4
  37. A91
  38. ACE21
  39. PP2000
  40. SVD12
  41. CBJMS
  42. UMP9
  43. SCARHSV
  44. Mk11
  45. MTAR
  46. PDWR
  47. FAMAS
  48. Groza4
  49. SG553
  50. ACW
  51. QBU88
  52. UMP45
  53. ASVAL
  54. ACE53
  55. P90
  56. MPX
  57. RFB
  58. Groza1
  59. MX4
  60. SR338
  61. SR2
  62. MP7
  63. JS2
  64. CZ3A1

ADS Not Moving Long Range Component Ranking - Full


  1. U100
  2. RPK12
  3. LSAT
  4. RPK47
  5. SR338
  6. Type88
  7. AR160
  8. QBB95
  9. SAR21
  10. M60E4
  11. M249
  12. PKP
  13. AK12
  14. L86A1
  15. SVD12
  16. SCARH
  17. AWS
  18. AN94
  19. SKS
  20. MG4
  21. AUG
  22. QBZ95
  23. M416
  24. CZ805
  25. L85A2
  26. M240B
  27. ACE23
  28. M39
  29. M16A4
  30. Mk11
  31. SCARHSV
  32. QBU88
  33. ACE53
  34. F2000
  35. Bulldog
  36. RFB
  37. AEK971
  38. Ak5C
  39. G36C
  40. AKU12
  41. Groza4
  42. Type95
  43. ACE21
  44. FAMAS
  45. ACE52
  46. M4
  47. ASVAL
  48. SG553
  49. A91
  50. ACW
  51. MTAR
  52. CBJMS
  53. PP2000
  54. PDWR
  55. UMP9
  56. UMP45
  57. P90
  58. Groza1
  59. MP7
  60. MPX
  61. MX4
  62. SR2
  63. CZ3A1
  64. JS2


Will you be doing these for BF1 too btw (in case it has attachments)?

Any Frostbite shooter that conforms with Shooting Mechanics can be studied like this. Though I'm not sure if Hitrater handles negative SIPS... I know it doesn't do that First Shot Spread Increase Modifier for sure.

Most importantly though, BF4 has a lot of guns, with each class having a choice of their class-specific weapons plus the Carbines and DMRs. So, I find that something like this is needed for me to decide whether or not I should grab an AR, Carbine or DMR as an Assault player... or PDW vs. all-kits as an Engineer... or LMG vs. all-kits as Support.

Even after you settle on a weapon, the attachment combinations are bewildering, where you can drastically change the gun's behaviour to suit... or heaven forbid to NOT suit... your play style. I ended up with 1107 entries that I looked at. Battlelog descriptions are too generic, YouTubers are too subjective... so thank goodness to Symthic!

BF1 looks like there will just be 2-3 presets per gun, vs. the upwards of 20 combinations we currently have in BF4. Thus, something like this will probably not be as crucial.

We'll see if available tools and understandings still apply to BF1, and even then I foresee that the analysis will be confined to be class-specific (Beretta vs. Bergmann, Mondragon vs. Winchester, so on and so forth).

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Thursday, August 18th 2016, 10:05pm

BF1 looks like there will just be 2-3 presets per gun, vs. the upwards of 20 combinations we currently have in BF4. Thus, something like this will probably not be as crucial.

These should be attachments coming too unless I am terribly mistaken. However the weapons have bunch of integrated attachments so combinations per weapon is smaller than for BF4.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • InterimAegis - Weapon comparisons/scoring.
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • pmax - Statistical analysis of BF4 players/games.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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Friday, August 19th 2016, 7:33am

AR160 is one hell of a gun. I was really surprised with how insanely good it is overall and why it's not vastly more commonly used. It won't go toe-to-toe against AEK/ACE heroes in their domain, but for all other situations it just feels exceptionally versatile. It's the only gun I've had no issues maintaining 4.0+ KPM with.

For some reason AR160 feels even more accurate/stable than RPK-12, though stats say otherwise so that's probably my assault bias speaking :P