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21

Friday, February 5th 2016, 7:32pm

[Aristocrat's Shoes]
TLDR -
Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"

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22

Friday, February 5th 2016, 7:59pm

What would be the best on 30Hz environment, Veritable?

First of all, just a note that "45Hz" doesn't exist. It is just a combination of my 30Hz and 60Hz scores. All consoles and some PC CQL servers stayed on 30Hz, some PC TDM and CQS servers went to 60Hz, while some other PC CQL servers went to 40Hz. Unfortunately we don't have Shooting Mechanics for 40Hz, so I just averaged the 2 scores I do have.

Assault: SCAR-H then becomes the "best." The AN-94 burst is BEASTLY in 30Hz but that's a niche product. 30Hz - SCAR-H > AUG A3 > AR160. 60Hz - AUG A3 > AR160 > SCAR-H.

Carbine: 30Hz - G36C > Ak5C > ACE 52. 60Hz - Ak5C > G36C > Type-95

DMR: No change, M39 NoGrip. If you are feeling adventurous, though, QBU-88 > SKS in 30Hz but SKS > QBU-88 in 60Hz.

PDW: UMP-45 was actually propped up by its 30Hz dominance, UMP-45 > PP-2000 > Groza-4. 60Hz favours slightly higher RPM so Groza-4 > CBJ-MS > UMP-9 > UMP-45.

Support: Considering all attachments, RPK > QBB no matter the environment, but QBB HBar + Ergo is just FRACTIONALLY better than all the others. It has a 3RB setting to boot, so you don't need to burst it yourself. I will note that in 30Hz both RPK and QBB recover Spread Increase the same no matter which barrel and grip you run (so run Ergo), while both in 60Hz CAN recover 1 frame faster if you run HBar + NoGrip... 1 frame is not a HUGE advantage in 60Hz though so I'd still say run a grip.

The observed theme is that in 30Hz, 600-650RPM is competitive in capable hands (shoot short bursts and aim for the head). In 60Hz, 700-750RPM become better.

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23

Friday, February 5th 2016, 8:39pm

@Hau_ruck

Re: Type-88 vs. M249 / MG4

Let's say you need 6 bullets to kill, which is the case for these 3 guns from ~50m onwards, as they all shoot the same bullet. According to these tables: BF4 shooting mechanics

700RPM (Type-88 ) = 13/30 frames or 24/60 frames.
800RPM (M249 / MG4) = 12/30 frames or 23/60 frames.

1/30th or 1/60th of a second difference, while the Type-88 is by far MUCH easier to use (lower V-Recoil, higher Velocity), will deal more damage within the burst (lower SIPS, lower H-Recoil), and can recover faster to engage the next target (lower SIPS, faster Spread Decrease).

That last point regarding lower SIPS and faster SDec confers additional advantage to the Type-88 in that in 30Hz you can run any barrel with any grip and essentially not be penalized. I calculated an effective RPM of ~514 bullets per minute even if you run MB + Ergo or AFG. For the MG4 I got 600 bullets per minute with all attachment combos, increasing to 675 if using HBar / NoBar / Supp with NoGrip (which means Bipod). Despite that though the DPS on the Type-88 is still higher from 40m onwards.

Re: UMP-45 vs. Carbines

The .45 PDW bullet has the same 15.4 minimum damage as 5.56mm Carbines, and same Gravity. Yes the Velocity is terrible but I main Suppressed DMRs (340 - 360m/s) and still shoot at people 100m away so I'm not scared of that 8) Of course it has better damage up close, not to mention WAY better Hipfire. However, even at 100m with its 2RB setting I calculated a DPS of 95.04 in 30Hz. The Ak5C HBar + Stubby, the overall "best Carbine," I got DPS of 108.24. That is like 8% difference.

When I rank them, putting everything together, I put UMP-45 HBar + AFG > Ak5C HBar + Stubby.

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24

Friday, February 5th 2016, 11:53pm

@Veritable. we have 45hz servers in Oz.think its a Metro server and locker Server.So the stats still work..real good!


[FPSG] 24/7 Metro Madness 1500 Tickets! www.fpsgamerz.com - Multiplayer - Battlelog
/ Battlefield 4

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25

Saturday, February 6th 2016, 12:15am

Again, if you want to look at the Sheet, here it is: BF4 Big Burst List - Google Sheets

For all the "scores," I assign the best in that field a score of 100, and then everyone else slotting below. All the "averages" are combined scores for that gun, with ALL ATTACHMENTS. Thus the U-100 won't score 100 on Velocity because you can put Suppressor on it. Same token that SAR-21 won't score 100 on V-Recoil because you can run it with HBar (making V-Recoil worse) or MB (making it better). For ranking purposes it works, though.

I should do a write-up but need to make all the charts first. If you know a bit about how to sort and filter in Google Sheets / Excel if you copy the sheet down, you can draw your own conclusions that way.

Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

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26

Saturday, February 6th 2016, 12:46am

Unfortunately we don't have Shooting Mechanics for 40Hz, so I just averaged the 2 scores I do have.

Actually, it's not hard to work out the bullet-out frame timings.

Let's take the ACE 23 at 40 Hz for an example.


The frames cycle every 1/40 = 0.025 s. So with this information, we can then predict the timings for every frame:

Source code

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
0-0.025
0.025-0.05
0.05-0.075
0.075-0.1
0.1-0.125
0.125-0.15
0.15-0.175


and etc. Then we work out the mathematical bullet-output timings of the ACE 23, which is once every 60/770 = 0.078 s. So the first three bullets would be at:

Source code

1
2
3
0
0.078
0.156


Then you simply "slot" the mathematical bullet-output timings into frames.

This means that at 40 Hz, the ACE 23's first three bullets would be fired in frames 1, 4, and 7.


You can apply this to any gun in the game at any server tickrate.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


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27

Saturday, February 6th 2016, 1:37am

@Zer0Cod3x

*blinks*

*stares*

...why didn't I think of doing that!?!?!?

*fiddles around in Google Sheets*

Okay, so I want to find out at which frame the ACE 23 fires 3 rounds, and then is ready to fire the 4th round and hence... ready to start Spread Recovery.

= ROUNDDOWN ( ( ( 60 / 770 ) * 3 ) / ( 1 / 40 ) ) = 9

If 30Hz....

= ROUNDDOWN ( ( ( 60 / 770 ) * 3 ) / ( 1 / 30 ) ) = 7, which matches the table here: BF4 shooting mechanics

If 60Hz....

= ROUNDDOWN ( ( ( 60 / 770 ) * 3 ) / ( 1 / 60 ) ) = 14, which matches the table here: BF4 shooting mechanics

Formula is = ROUNDDOWN ( ( ( 60 / RoF ) * Fired Bullets ) / ( 1 / Tickrate ) )

BRB updating tables.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Veritable" (Feb 7th 2016, 7:51am)


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28

Saturday, February 6th 2016, 3:59am

@Hau_ruck

Re: Type-88 vs. M249 / MG4

Let's say you need 6 bullets to kill, which is the case for these 3 guns from ~50m onwards, as they all shoot the same bullet. According to these tables: BF4 shooting mechanics

700RPM (Type-88 ) = 13/30 frames or 24/60 frames.
800RPM (M249 / MG4) = 12/30 frames or 23/60 frames.

1/30th or 1/60th of a second difference, while the Type-88 is by far MUCH easier to use (lower V-Recoil, higher Velocity), will deal more damage within the burst (lower SIPS, lower H-Recoil), and can recover faster to engage the next target (lower SIPS, faster Spread Decrease).

That last point regarding lower SIPS and faster SDec confers additional advantage to the Type-88 in that in 30Hz you can run any barrel with any grip and essentially not be penalized. I calculated an effective RPM of ~514 bullets per minute even if you run MB + Ergo or AFG. For the MG4 I got 600 bullets per minute with all attachment combos, increasing to 675 if using HBar / NoBar / Supp with NoGrip (which means Bipod). Despite that though the DPS on the Type-88 is still higher from 40m onwards.

Re: UMP-45 vs. Carbines

The .45 PDW bullet has the same 15.4 minimum damage as 5.56mm Carbines, and same Gravity. Yes the Velocity is terrible but I main Suppressed DMRs (340 - 360m/s) and still shoot at people 100m away so I'm not scared of that 8) Of course it has better damage up close, not to mention WAY better Hipfire. However, even at 100m with its 2RB setting I calculated a DPS of 95.04 in 30Hz. The Ak5C HBar + Stubby, the overall "best Carbine," I got DPS of 108.24. That is like 8% difference.

When I rank them, putting everything together, I put UMP-45 HBar + AFG > Ak5C HBar + Stubby.


Wait, is this assuming I am only firing six bullets per target and never missing?

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29

Saturday, February 6th 2016, 5:59am

Wait, is this assuming I am only firing six bullets per target and never missing?

Well, if you're bipodded up like you said, with the buffs that bipods confer to you, you should be able to land the first 6 shots of your burst within 100m, thus securing the kill. Shooting up to BTK is a fairly standard practice I think.

In that case, you kill a split-second later with the Type-88. No big deal IMO.

If not bipodded, on the other hand, then you'd know that the Type-88 is WAY easier to handle than the MG4 / M249. Shooting a 6RB, you also have a WAY better hitrate (thus better damage, thus better DPS) due to better H-Recoil and SIPS. With better SIPS and SDec, you can also engage the next target faster.

Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

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30

Saturday, February 6th 2016, 6:19am

@Zer0Cod3x

*blinks*

*stares*

...why didn't I think of doing that!?!?!?

*fiddles around in Google Sheets*

Okay, so I want to find out at which frame the ACE 23 fires 3 rounds, and then is ready to fire the 4th round and hence... ready to start Spread Recovery.

= ROUNDUP ( ( ( 60 / 770 ) * 3 ) / ( 1 / 40 ) ) = 10

If 30Hz....

= ROUNDUP ( ( ( 60 / 770 ) * 3 ) / ( 1 / 30 ) ) = 8, which matches the table here: BF4 shooting mechanics

If 60Hz....

= ROUNDUP ( ( ( 60 / 770 ) * 3 ) / ( 1 / 60 ) ) = 15, which matches the table here: BF4 shooting mechanics

Formula is = ROUNDUP ( ( ( 60 / RoF ) * Fired Bullets ) / ( 1 / Tickrate ) )

To match your result, swap 3 with 2, so for that usage it will be ( Fired Bullets - 1 ).

BRB updating tables.

:D

Note, this is also assuming that 40/45/60/whatever tickrate is actually the tickrate and not some stupid number like 59.95/2 for "30" Hz.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.