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  • "leptis" started this thread

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Thursday, November 19th 2015, 1:52pm

Shotguns damage : change Fall 2015 Patch

There is a previous thread analyzing the damage caused by shotguns:
Shotgun damage: New Model

The general ideas and conclusions remain qualitatively valid.

The change in damage model is:




This means that quantitative changes are limited to the range 24-50 m.

The change in the mean damage (number of pellets 12 and 21) are:






As you can see changes are outside the area OHK.


The change in the probability of lethal damage (DMG>100) with one shot, is:






No changes for small number of pellets and a reduction of probability (very small, when previously was 4%, now is 0% - 32 m.) for 21 pellets.


The conclusion is that the shotguns are still effective in its natural range of use (0-25 m), 66% of the engagements according Miffyli kill distance data.


Outside this range, and for shotguns with high number of pellets (ie. 21) the effect (on average) is it will take one shot more to kill, as you can see here:




This is the change on average, but previously you needed (at 35 m) betwen 1 and 5 shots (2 on average), and now you need betwen 2 and 6 shots (3 on average) (probability 95%, +/- 2* standard dev.). That means that now you still can kill with 2 shots, but with a lower probability.

For shotguns with low number of pellets (ie 12) yo nedded too many shots to kill outside of the optimal range (surely you lost the target or the target killed you), and now you need too many+1, that is, too many shots too.

With this change the subjective perception "someone has killed me with one shot at 50 meters" (numerically impossible) will be less frequent. Although if he forgot that was running with 10 of life may continue believing.

Conclusions on the effect of chokes, darts, defensive perk etc., understood as a horizontal displacement of the curves in distance or the reduced area of the body where the full effect occurs remain valid (more or less).

This post has been edited 7 times, last edit by "leptis" (Nov 20th 2015, 1:24pm)


  • "leptis" started this thread

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Monday, November 23rd 2015, 12:48pm

Bumping that.


I do not know if the fact that no one has answered the post is because everyone agrees with the conclusions or because no one has read the thread. ;(

In any case, the number of shotguns in the game has decreased considerably.

Psychological effect of the announcement of nerf?

Do you feel that shotguns are weaker now?

Perhaps the numbers doesn`t explain everything.

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Monday, November 23rd 2015, 2:35pm

Can you provide data when using a full choke? This is the most interesting case, because the issue was unintentionally high damage above 25 meters when using full choke.
[Aristocrat's Shoes]
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Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"

  • "leptis" started this thread

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Monday, November 23rd 2015, 11:17pm

Can you provide data when using a full choke? This is the most interesting case, because the issue was unintentionally high damage above 25 meters when using full choke.
@Rezal

As written in the previous post the effect of the full choke is like moving horizontally damage curves 5 meters further (approx), giving an increase of damage of about 20% to a specific distance.

This is true if we are not very close (if all pellets are within the chest -naked-, full choke doesnīt give any improvement) and if we are not very far (if the pellets are separated 2 meters on average only one can hit, on average too, and nothing changes if we concentrate them to 1.5 m.).

This remains valid because it depends only on the geometry of the dispersion not on the damage model.


The deterministic approach to that was:


the damage for a specific shotgun is proportional to the size of the circle of dispersion (aprox.), regardless wich are the number of pellets and unit damage.

Equaling the area of the circles at two distances D1 and D2 with naked and full choke, we have

D1 * tan (angle naked) = D2 * tan (angle full);

D2 / D1 = tan (angle naked) / tan (angle full) = 1.33

This means that a shotgun (naked barrel) at 15 m will behaves like that shotgun (full choke) at 1.33x15 = 19.95 m, ie the 5 meters showing in the probabilistic study.

I will calculate new curves for full choke next weekend, but i donīt expect significant changes, only slight changes when the extension enters the 24 meters area, as with the crossing of the mean value of damage (21 pellets) with the line 100, which is 22 meters (naked) and should be 27 m (full choke). Perhaps it may lose one meter or so...

Nothing to do with the subjective perception " he killed me with just one shot at 50 meters".

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "leptis" (Nov 23rd 2015, 11:23pm)


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Tuesday, November 24th 2015, 12:52pm

just a short question, do shotguns have now 12 or 21 pellets with the latest changes or have they still 15 and 18 as well as you had in your graphs of your older thread?

Zer0Cod3x

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Tuesday, November 24th 2015, 1:23pm

just a short question, do shotguns have now 12 or 21 pellets with the latest changes or have they still 15 and 18 as well as you had in your graphs of your older thread?

Shotguns have a variety of pellet counts.

He's just only done the 12 and 21 pellet graphs.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


  • "leptis" started this thread

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Tuesday, November 24th 2015, 1:44pm


just a short question, do shotguns have now 12 or 21 pellets with the latest changes or have they still 15 and 18 as well as you had in your graphs of your older thread?
As Zer0Cod3x said, now shotguns have 12, 13,18 and 21 pellets. I give only the extreme values for better clarity of graphs.

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Tuesday, November 24th 2015, 3:47pm

Just played some rounds with SPAS-12. Is almost as unreliable as it was before Shotguns buff. Or the penalty for being slightly off target has increased. Or the Auto-Aim fooled me. Could be all of it, but I hate Pump-Actions again. Should've mastered them before the patch, but I just managed to tick off all the semi-autos, as I didnt know how hard they are going to be hit by nerfs.
still playin' Motorstorm

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Sunday, December 13th 2015, 3:02am

why would you use the spas 12 over the 870?
There is literally no reason to.... besides the fact it look boss.

Zer0Cod3x

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Sunday, December 13th 2015, 5:06am

One more bullet in the tube, and less recoil.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.