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  • "Girtablulu" started this thread

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1

Thursday, October 22nd 2015, 11:48am

Vol. 2 ADS Timing (manual testing) and SDEC timings comprison

ADS timing (manual testing)

I decided from a older test results of Miffyli ADS timing vol 1 to redo for myself the test but this time for all optics and thought I going to share my results with you.

Method I used

I did the test as Miffyli did in his older test so we will have similar results.

final note: These are not meant to use for accurate calculations nor to be taken for granted! These are mainly meant to give us at least something about ADS timings.

timings are calculated with the value of 30ms/frame for easier understanding

Source code

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Weapon Class / Sight           |  ADS in  |  ADS out
-------------------------------+----------+---------
AR/Car/PDW  iron sight         |  0.18    |  0.27
AR/Car/PDW reddot              |  0.18    |  0.27
AR/Car/PDW x1 sight            |  0.18    |  0.27
AR/Car/PDW x2 sight            |  0.24    |  0.27
AR/Car/PDW x3.4 sight          |  0.21    |  0.27
AR/Car/PDW x4.4 sight          |  0.21    |  0.27

LMG/DMR/SR iron sight          |  0.21    |  0.27
LMG/DMR/SR reddot              |  0.21    |  0.27
LMG/DMR/SR x1 sight            |  0.21    |  0.27
LMG/DMR/SR x2 sight            |  0.24    |  0.27
LMG/DMR/SR x3.4 sight          |  0.24    |  0.27
LMG/DMR/SR x4.4 sight          |  0.24    |  0.27
SR x6/7/8/20/40 Optic          |  0.24    |  0.27 

Shotguns iron sight            |  0.18    |  0.27
Shotguns reddot                |  0.18    |  0.27
Shotguns  x1 Sight             |  0.18    |  0.27
Shotguns x2 Sight              |  0.24    |  0.27
Shotguns x3.4 Sight            |  0.21    |  0.27
Shotguns x4.4 Sight            |  0.21    |  0.27

Pistol iron sight              |  0.18    |  0.27
Pistol Ring                    |  0.18    |  0.27
Pistol Reddot                  |  0.18    |  0.27
Pistol x3 sight                |  0.18    |  0.27


In addition I calculated how long it takes for the spread decrease timing and compared it to the zoom timing if the spread decrease timing within the ADS animation or takes longer.

For calculation of the SDEC timing I used this formula

(x / ((d*z)/1000)) - (m / ((d*z)/1000))

x = ADS max
d = SDEC value
m = ADS min
z = Grip SDEC

Final Note: I had to add an additional Frame per decrease because it needs one frame from Hip spread value to the ADS max spread value

timings are calculated with the value of 33ms/frame

Assault rifle
Carabine
LMG
PDW
DMR
Sniper*the calculation results are a bit weird but should be right
Shotguns
Pistol*could test the ML because I haven't unlock anything from this pistol

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This post has been edited 10 times, last edit by "Girtablulu" (Oct 22nd 2015, 3:01pm)


Zer0Cod3x

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2

Thursday, October 22nd 2015, 12:22pm

Could you explain the SDEC timings a little more? I can't read it.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


  • "Girtablulu" started this thread

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3

Thursday, October 22nd 2015, 12:46pm

Could you explain the SDEC timings a little more? I can't read it.


What do you mean you can't read them?


As an example

the AK-12 and using this formula without any grip and no movement (x / (d/1000)) - (m / (d/1000))

(1.7/(1.7/1000))-(0.2/(1.7/1000)) = 103 ms this is the time it needs to decrease from ADS max value to ADS min value. I recorded everything with 30 fps so it takes ~0.3 sec per frame (as Miffily first post)

so 103ms/30ms= 3.4 Frames per sec = 4 frames but you have to add 1 additional frame because it needs 1 frame from the value Hip spread to ADS Max.

So it needs 5 frames from any given spread value to reach min and because the iron sight need 6 frames for it ADS animation you decrease faster than the animation, the Scar-H as an example needs 7 frames so it takes longer to decrease than the animation

Zer0Cod3x

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Thursday, October 22nd 2015, 1:30pm

I think some explanation of your acronyms/pronumerals would be helpful.

So, d = max spread, m = min spread, x = what?

So in essence, you're trying to find the time it takes spread to reset from maximum?
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


Miffyli

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Thursday, October 22nd 2015, 1:47pm

Oooo may I ask did you read the fov value from memory as well and if so what language you used? Just asking out of curiosity.

Kinda odd ADS-out is same for everything no matter what, but I guess it's way less important than ads-in.

Using 33ms would have been bit more accurate and if we had lots of frames it would grow to big absolute error fast but in this case the difference is in practice minimal, nobody can squeeze advantage out of one 33ms logical frame in any multiplayer game.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

  • "Girtablulu" started this thread

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Thursday, October 22nd 2015, 2:14pm

I think some explanation of your acronyms/pronumerals would be helpful.

So, d = max spread, m = min spread, x = what?

So in essence, you're trying to find the time it takes spread to reset from maximum?



Ah sorry totally forgot to add them,

x = ADS max (or any other spread value)
d = SDEC value
m = ADS min (or any other spread value)
z = Grip SDEC

and yes it took me wonder how long it takes.


@Miffyli

No, I did not read the FOV value from memory (don't have any tools for this), was by eyes counting the frames yea I know not really exact :)

About the ADS out yea was surprised as well but I thought it would be still interesting to add them and I'm going to update the charts with the value of 33 ms, so people won't complain it's not totally accurate

Miffyli

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Thursday, October 22nd 2015, 2:25pm

No, I did not read the FOV value from memory (don't have any tools for this), was by eyes counting the frames yea I know not really exact :)

Oh in this case it's "good enough", considering the fov I read from the memory is same as in drawn picture so you can pretty easily spot when fov is not changing anymore by going frame-by-frame and counting them.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

C0llis

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Thursday, October 22nd 2015, 2:27pm

I don't think the "spread decrease while ADSing" calculations are correct. IIRC all guns now have 15 spread decrease for the first 0.2 seconds after going ADS.

Edit: check the "NoFireDecreasePerSecond" and "NoFireTimeThreshold" stats. They are (IIRC) global for all (automatic?) weapons.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

  • "Girtablulu" started this thread

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Thursday, October 22nd 2015, 2:56pm

@miffily

yep this is what I did, quite some work..

@C0llis

Yes I know the faster decrease, this is the reason why I added on the excel sheets 1 extra frame at the No grip/Grip/Flash hider FPS numbers to compensate the decrease between HIP spread to ADS max Spread

C0llis

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Thursday, October 22nd 2015, 4:23pm

Yes I know the faster decrease, this is the reason why I added on the excel sheets 1 extra frame at the No grip/Grip/Flash hider FPS numbers to compensate the decrease between HIP spread to ADS max Spread
I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. The constant "d" (spread decrease) in your calculations should be 15 for the first 0.2 seconds after the player starts going into ADS if more than 0.2 seconds has passed since the last shot, for all weapons.


@Rezal

Is this correct?

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "C0llis" (Oct 22nd 2015, 5:40pm)