Welcome to symthic forums! We would love if you'd register!
You don't have to be expert in bit baking, everyone is more than welcome to join our community.

You are not logged in.

## Now that grips got a nerf, are they still worth using?

Can't get a title

Posts: 1,531

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

Reputation modifier: 13

Sunday, July 19th 2015, 7:31am

### Quoted from "Rezal"

I don't even understand the math behind this.

The formula I used is:

((SDEC * [SDEC multipliers] * [Number of frames waited]) / 30) / (SIPS * [SIPS modifiers]) + 1

This will give you the number of bullets you're able to fire with 1 frame wait time without SDEC affecting your min spread. This wait time obviously starts after you're able to fire again, so in the FAMAS' case you wait two frames.

### Spoiler

So, putting in the FAMAS comp + stubby you get:

((6.2 * 0.66 * 1) / 30) / (0.13 * 0.8 * 1.3) + 1

which gives you 2.528599606... or to simplify 2.5. Of course you can't shoot 2.5 bullets so let's round that to two.

Using the same formula for FAMAS comp + no grip gives you 2.2. This means that, with the shortest wait time possible on the FAMAS of 1 frame you'll be able to fire for longer (well, I say longer but it's 0.3 bullets) with a stubby than without. And considering the other buffs the stubby gives you there's no point in running no grip on the FAMAS. Note AFAIK this is the only weapon in the game that does this.

If you're wondering whether my formula is correct, I've checked it with Veritable's formula for "frames to recover spread" and rearranging my equation you'll end up with Veritable's. So my formula is correct, unless if we're both wrong (which I highly doubt ).

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

But you still need to wait longer, correct?

Nope. Explanation as above.

Edit: sorry, I screwed up my calculations for the comp + stubby FAMAS. Forgot to add in the grip modifier for SDEC. So the new value for FAMAS comp + stubby turns out to be 2.00887574... or to simplify 2. And considering that the FAMAS comp + no grip is also rounded to 2, you might as well use the stubby. It's only if you wait 5 or more frames between bursts (which means you can shoot 6 and 7 bullets) that no grip starts to win.

something something Model 8 bestgun

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:

Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

### Quoted from "Veritable"

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Zer0Cod3x" (Jul 19th 2015, 9:53am)

Rezmer

Posts: 4,259

Date of registration
: Apr 6th 2012

Platform: PC

Location: From the heart of Europe.

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 17

Sunday, July 19th 2015, 10:59am

And why would you add that 1in the end? If you have no spread decrease at all, tte number of bullets you can fire should be 0, shouldn't it?
[Aristocrat's Shoes]

### Quoted from "Darktan13"

TLDR -
Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"

Can't get a title

Posts: 1,531

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

Reputation modifier: 13

Sunday, July 19th 2015, 11:25am

### Quoted from "Rezal"

And why would you add that 1in the end? If you have no spread decrease at all, tte number of bullets you can fire should be 0, shouldn't it?

The first shot fired is at min spread, then on the second SIPS kicks in. The "+1" at the end accounts for this.
something something Model 8 bestgun

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:

Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

### Quoted from "Veritable"

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

Rezmer

Posts: 4,259

Date of registration
: Apr 6th 2012

Platform: PC

Location: From the heart of Europe.

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 17

Sunday, July 19th 2015, 12:19pm

So, you are saying, a gun with no spread decrease at all would not be hurt by that if you just shoot one bullet at a time?
[Aristocrat's Shoes]

### Quoted from "Darktan13"

TLDR -
Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"

Posts: 895

Date of registration
: Dec 8th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 13

Sunday, July 19th 2015, 6:51pm

I was calculating how many frames it takes for the gun to return to base spread after how many bullets are fired, so I used +1 because the first firing frame is Frame 1. To be honest I'm not sure it applies to what Zer0Cod3x wants to do.

We can take some sample cases and compare the result to 1/30s, though.

-----

FAMAS HBar + Naked

SIPS = 0.1202 / shot

SDEC = 6.2 / second

1 shot takes ~0.0193s, which is less than 1/30s, so we can say it takes 1 frame to recover from 1 shot.

2 shots take ~0.0388s, which is greater than 1/30s but not greater than 2/30s, so it takes 2 frames to recover from 2 shots.

3 shots take ~0.0582s, which is also greater than 1/30s but not greater than 2/30s, so it takes 2 frames to recover from 3 shots.

-----

FAMAS Comp + Stubby

SIPS = 0.1352

SDEC = 4.092

1 shot takes ~0.0330s, which is less than 1/30s, so we can say it takes 1 frame to recover from 1 shot.

2 shots take ~0.0661s, which is greater than 1/30s but not greater than 2/30s, so it takes 2 frames to recover from 2 shots.

3 shots take ~0.0991s, which is greater than 2/30s but not greater than 3/30s, so it takes 3 frames to recover from 3 shots.

-----

Mom's Spaghetti

Posts: 1,774

Date of registration
: May 10th 2014

Platform: 360

Location: United States, Pennsylvania

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 6

Sunday, July 19th 2015, 7:59pm

So the longer the burst, the more no grip helps with spread decreases? But to a moderately negligible amount, until you start firing (too) long bursts?

Sent from my XT1031 using Tapatalk

Symthic's Friendly Neighborhood Pastafarian

Master of nothing, mediocre at everything... except dropping ammo boxes. I do that like it's my fucking job.
BAND RECOMMENDATION OF THE WEEK (or really till whenever I update it): I don't really have much if I'm being honest. Give me some metalcore recommendations and I'll try 'em out

### Quoted from "3VerstsNorth"

You're into Chinese nowadays?
No, but i am into immature jokes about sexual intercourse with cats with a pinch of stereotypical asian accent.

Thanks razal.

### Quoted from "hunturk"

I don't even have a big neck.

I didn't know vertigo could disrupt one's sense of size.

Posts: 33

Date of registration
: Jun 3rd 2015

Platform: PS4

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 1

Sunday, July 19th 2015, 10:37pm

How do you guys control your famas burst lenght scince it fires its mag in just 1,5 seconds))

Mom's Spaghetti

Posts: 1,774

Date of registration
: May 10th 2014

Platform: 360

Location: United States, Pennsylvania

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 6

Sunday, July 19th 2015, 10:46pm

### Quoted

How do you guys control your famas burst lenght scince it fires its mag in just 1,5 seconds))

Something I've been meaning to try is flat out using the burst mode, as it will help with both accuracy and ammo conservation

Symthic's Friendly Neighborhood Pastafarian

Master of nothing, mediocre at everything... except dropping ammo boxes. I do that like it's my fucking job.
BAND RECOMMENDATION OF THE WEEK (or really till whenever I update it): I don't really have much if I'm being honest. Give me some metalcore recommendations and I'll try 'em out

### Quoted from "3VerstsNorth"

You're into Chinese nowadays?
No, but i am into immature jokes about sexual intercourse with cats with a pinch of stereotypical asian accent.

Thanks razal.

### Quoted from "hunturk"

I don't even have a big neck.

I didn't know vertigo could disrupt one's sense of size.

Posts: 426

Date of registration
: Feb 27th 2014

Platform: PC

Location: HardCore

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 6

Sunday, July 19th 2015, 11:26pm

### Quoted from "RRR3186"

How do you guys control your famas burst lenght scince it fires its mag in just 1,5 seconds))

I consider each magazine a burst. :/

Can't get a title

Posts: 1,531

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

Reputation modifier: 13

Monday, July 20th 2015, 11:58am

### Quoted from "Rezal"

So, you are saying, a gun with no spread decrease at all would not be hurt by that if you just shoot one bullet at a time?

Well, obviously it would be hurt by that. But that's never going to happen.

Am I missing something? I don't think so. AFAIK the first shot has no SIPS, and SIPS starts on the second shot. Which is why I added the "+1" in. I'll break it down further.

FAMAS comp + stubby - 4.092 SDEC, 0.1352 SIPS, 0.1364 degrees of spread recovered per frame:

1st shot has 0 added SIPS (total of 0.25 degrees of spread), therefore 0 spread needs to be recovered.

2nd shot has 0.1352 added SIPS, 0.1364 spread recovered per frame, therefore 2 frames of wait time to recover spread (including the frame where no SDEC happens).

3rd shot has 0.2704 added SIPS, 0.1364 spread recovered per frame (0.2728 recovered in 2 frames), therefore 3 frames of wait time to recover spread.

So are there any flaws in this logic?

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

So the longer the burst, the more no grip helps with spread decreases? But to a moderately negligible amount, until you start firing (too) long bursts?

The thing here is balancing the effective RoF with the total spread. By shooting for longer you'll (most of the time) put out a higher DPS than while bursting shorter, but you'll also then have more spread to deal with due to more shots being fired. With a FAMAS comp + stubby at 30 m and onwards the most effective burst length is 2, with a kill time at 30 m of 10 frames. If you burst 3 shots, as burst fire mode does, you'll end up with the kill time at 30 m 11 frames.

@Veritable

This is what I'm aiming to do with my spreadsheet.

### Quoted from "RRR3186"

How do you guys control your famas burst lenght scince it fires its mag in just 1,5 seconds))

Practise
something something Model 8 bestgun

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:

Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

### Quoted from "Veritable"

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

1 guests