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Friday, March 13th 2015, 8:07pm

Not sure if I missed it or it just wasn't mention but what, if any, compensation for vertical recoil did you use? Unless the hitrater does it's own thing. I'm not sure how it works.

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Friday, March 13th 2015, 8:41pm

Not sure if I missed it or it just wasn't mention but what, if any, compensation for vertical recoil did you use? Unless the hitrater does it's own thing. I'm not sure how it works.


Because vertical recoil can be perfectly compensated, hitrater completely ignores it. The absolute guaranteed inaccuracy a weapon has is based on spread and Hrecoil so that's what hitrater uses.
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Friday, March 13th 2015, 9:00pm

Because vertical recoil can be perfectly compensated, hitrater completely ignores it. The absolute guaranteed inaccuracy a weapon has is based on spread and Hrecoil so that's what hitrater uses.


Whilst I understand the reasoning for this in the use of Hitrater as a tool, I'm pretty sure this assumption is only true for cases where FSM = 1? It's pretty much humanly impossible to fully account for the difference between shots 1 and 2 if the FSM is large.

Is there a way to factor in additional inaccuracy on the second shot based on the difference between the actual FSR and the regular VRec? I just can't help feel that on something like the AEK with a 3.0 FSM and huge Vrec, throwing the HBar in is going to add additional inaccuracy that hitrater just wont see purely due to the huge jump.

I know Ease of use is a hard thing to quantify, and you have to make hte assumption that VRec on sustained bursts can be perfectly compensated, but that first shot is really important and I don't think many players bar the absolute inhuman ones can guarantee keeping a zero-movement Y axis on rapid fire weapons with high FSMs.

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Friday, March 13th 2015, 9:14pm

@Sapphidia

Hitrater is there to provide the absolute best you can expect out of a weapon just as how TTK here is the absolute best you can expect.

Whatever number hitrater churns out, you always expect that to be the upper limit and that you can only do worse.
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Friday, March 13th 2015, 9:37pm

Whatever number hitrater churns out, you always expect that to be the upper limit and that you can only do worse.


*nods* Ya, not really suggesting any change to hitrater. More saying that when using hitrater to objectively decide whether Comp or HBar is "better" on certain guns there does need to be that rough secondary calculation done outside of hitrater that somehow factors in the "expected" human inaccuracy of that second shot. Which... is probably impossible but simply a factor based on (FSM x VRec)-(VRec) thrown in somewhere or just used to find a breakpoint at which the HBar is just pointless unless the difference in hitrater is bigger than a certain amount.

I guess it's all subjective, I'm mostly just raising an eyebrow at using -purely- hitrater to decide HBar vs Comp when there are numbers in there to quantify the difference in vrec consistancy. Hitrater shows the AEK as noticeably better with the HBar but 3.0 FSM and .38 base VRec is going to create a comparatively larger difference in that second shot inaccuracy with 30% increase.

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Friday, March 13th 2015, 10:04pm

@MadMattDog
@Sapphidia

That's what the "Damage per Degree V-Recoil" is supposed to show, as it divides the Damage amount by the V-Recoil you have to fight in order to keep the aimpoint on target. In that list you can see that the AEK-971 Comp is ranked 5 places ahead of the AEK-971 HBar. That means, despite statistically the HBar is more accurate than the Comp, the increase in V-Recoil is NOT WORTH IT.

Still, though, if you are awesome at countering any amount of V-Recoil perfectly, then use the Pure Damage Output ranking. Not stopping you; just sayin' 8)

That reminds me: upon further consideration, the Combined Ranking is redundant and will be removed from the OP.

*edit* welp, since HBar universally increases V-Recoil values by exactly 23% in this study, it will always statistically be "not worth it" as no weapon in this study improves accuracy by 23%+ when using HBar (only Type-95B-1 comes close). I guess the Combined still has its use, though I might need to weigh each components differently. Hmph.

Would you be willing to add Support weapons and PDWs?
Actually, PDWs wouldn't be needed, but it would be nice.

Support weapons and DMRs have longer drop-offs than ARs and Carbines, so doing the same 55m simulation might not be fair. Also, I don't want to pore over the damage graphs trying to figure out the fractional values as the graph slopes down :P Come to think of it, I think 80m will be a good value, as that is DMR's minimum and just beyond the GPMG's minimum. That will hurt the 5.56mm LMGs, though. Not to mention making that study incompatible with the ARs and Carbines. Hmph.

why 55m, BTK drops at 39-40m?

Same reason as above, I don't want to deal with fractional damages, and since Carbine and AR minimum damage ranges are only 5m apart, I chose 55. I also thought it would be a good compromise to look at to produce good data: too close, and everybody hits everything so there are no separation in values; too far, and everyone misses everything.

Finally, just noticed that the AKU-12 entry is missing from the Carbines results, despite being ranked. I'll add that now to the OP.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Veritable" (Mar 13th 2015, 10:16pm)


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Friday, March 13th 2015, 10:14pm

That's what the "Damage per Degree V-Recoil" is supposed to show, as it divides the Damage amount by the V-Recoil you have to fight in order to keep the aimpoint on target. In that list you can see that the AEK-971 Comp is ranked 5 places ahead of the AEK-971 HBar. That means, despite statistically the HBar is more accurate than the Comp, the increase in V-Recoil is NOT WORTH IT.


Doh, I missed that list. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Honestly the biggest shocker for me today is finding out that the AR160 is more accurate with a compensator than an HBar, as that was always (incorrectly) on my list of guns where the HBar was clearly a nobrainer based on a quick scan of the stats.

I assume for this VRec ranking you're using the basic VRec and discounting FSM? or are you factoring in average VRec over the expected burst length?

My gut feeling for the unlikely concept of incorporating VRec into the initial hitrater calcs is to make the assumption that perfect VRec control is possible on all shots past the second, and the second shot is affected by a -random- amount between 0 and the difference between basic and FirstShot Vrec. You're going to try and account for the increased amount on the first shot by varying the pulldown speed a bit, but it'll probably only account for a random amount of the difference. After the FSM shot, the rest will be the consistant VRec that anyone should be able to near-perfectly account for. I guess it's as if the second shot has an additional layer of HRec on it based on FSM/VRec comparison. I dunno.

Your accuracy by degrees of VRec list is certainly the the most useful list for myself!

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Friday, March 13th 2015, 10:34pm

Honestly the biggest shocker for me today is finding out that the AR160 is more accurate with a compensator than an HBar, as that was always (incorrectly) on my list of guns where the HBar was clearly a nobrainer based on a quick scan of the stats.

Not anymore, it doesn't. As per C0llis' suggestion, I re-did the values by balancing the H-Recoil values, and now the HBar yields a ~6% increase in accuracy for the AR160. The only weapon that is statistically more accurate with the Comp than HBar is now (still) the FAMAS.

I assume for this VRec ranking you're using the basic VRec and discounting FSM? or are you factoring in average VRec over the expected burst length?

FSM is applied once. For a 6 rounds burst weapon (namely, any 5.56mm AR) I used the following formula: (V-Recoil * FSM) + (V-Recoil * 5) = accumulated V-Recoil. Why 5? Because the FSM is already applied to the 1st round, so you get hit by the V-Recoil value 5 more times.

You're going to try and account for the increased amount on the first shot by varying the pulldown speed a bit, but it'll probably only account for a random amount of the difference. After the FSM shot, the rest will be the consistant VRec that anyone should be able to near-perfectly account for.

ToTheSun! and others (Nick has done a study) has advocated using the AFG to keep FSM as close to 1 as possible for ultimate ease-of-use, which is exactly what you are referring to. The G36C and Ak5C with AFG both do exactly that, perhaps others as well.

I can also see the point of using AFGs on GPMGs and make the FSM so low that you can fire 2-rounds-bursts and have them land almost right on top of each other despite you doing no compensation. It might not be popular opinion, and in fact I don't even use GPMGs myself, not to mention completely wasting the 200 rounds box mags, but some swears by that usage and I can see why.

Your accuracy by degrees of VRec list is certainly the the most useful list for myself!

Thanks! That's why I included the V-Recoil values in my Excel sheet. I can't say I'm good at this game, myself, so finding that balancing point between pure damage output and also ease-of-use mean a lot to me. For me personally, looking at these results, I might just be forced to stop being so stubborn with DMRs and pick up a Heavy-Barrelled G36C and be even more useful to my team....

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Friday, March 13th 2015, 10:56pm

ToTheSun! and others (Nick has done a study) has advocated using the AFG to keep FSM as close to 1 as possible for ultimate ease-of-use

Since day 1.

angled best grip

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Friday, March 13th 2015, 11:31pm

Since day 1.

angled best grip

...I don't like it for DMRs, though... it made me too spammy... not to mention for DMRs the moment you touch WASD your Spread goes all the way to hell... sorry to disappoint....

On the other hand, G36C (13.9% error), Ak5C (10.55%), SCAR-H (7.2%) and L85A2 (5%!?!?!? error), all with AFG and HBar, aim at range and let loose 10 rounds while gently and consistently pulling straight down.... DMR? What's that? :P

Damn you Sun, your animated avatar is seeding doubt in my mind! Hhhrrrnnnggg.