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  • "Veritable" started this thread

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: Dec 8th 2013

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1

Wednesday, March 11th 2015, 1:32am

Whether HBar, Whether Comp? A Hitrater Investigation

This is an attempt to answer a question that I often seen asked: Which gun would benefit from the Compensator? Which gun is worth the ~23% V-Recoil penalty that the Heavy Barrel hits you with?

Part 1: Assault Rifles and Carbines

Setup:
  1. Hitrater
  2. H-Recoil values + ADS - Not Moving spread values + SIPS values for the gun in question
  3. modified by Naked / Heavy Barrel / Compensator barrel attachments
  4. Range 55m aiming at center mass
  5. length of burst is set to the BTK values at that range (which is minimum damage for both classes) for the weapon (5 for SCAR-H and Bulldog, 6 for 5.56mm ARs and ACE 52, 7 for 5.56mm Carbines)
  6. 1 million runs
  7. multiply the expected hits with the damage value to get an average damage per burst value
  8. rank the damage values for each gun by attachment
  9. rank the values for each gun in the class
  10. rank the values for each gun across both classes.


Part 1a: Assault Rifles

ACE 23

Comp (77.3208 ) ---(+1.80%)--> Naked (78.7122) ---(+8.22%)--> HBar (85.1814)

AEK-971

Naked (69.4962) ---(+0.59%)--> Comp (69.9084) ---(+6.90%)--> Hbar (74.7342)

AK-12

Comp (84.5316) ---(+4.50%)--> Naked (88.335) ---(+8.41%)--> HBar (95.7672)

AR160

Naked (77.2344) ---(+0.77%)--> Comp (77.8284) ---(+6.19%)--> HBar (82.647)

AUG A3

Comp (75.7728 ) ---(+0.01%)--> Naked (76.4514) ---(+9.89%)--> HBar (84.0114)

Bulldog

Naked (68.9568 ) ---(+4.73%)--> Comp (72.2208 ) ---(+1.55%)--> HBar (73.3416)

CZ-805

Comp (81.4626) ---(+3.22%)--> Naked (84.087) ---(+8.32%)--> Hbar (91.0818 )

F2000

Naked (64.0296) ---(+2.90%)--> Comp (65.8872) ---(+4.89%)--> HBar (69.111)

FAMAS

Naked (51.246) ---(+5.18%)--> HBar (53.8992) ---(+2.24%)--> Comp (55.1088 )

L85A2

Comp (73.4022) ---(+0.82%)--> Naked (74.0052) ---(+10.92%)--> HBar (81.4158 )

M416

Comp (77.7942) ---(+1.62%)--> Naked (79.0578 ) ---(+8.08%)--> HBar (85.4442)

QBZ-95-1

Comp (80.289) ---(+4.17%)--> Naked (83.6406) ---(+11.13%)--> HBar (92.9502)

SAR-21

Comp (81.4374) ---(+2.45%)--> Naked (83.4354) ---(+10.00%)--> HBar (91.7784)

SCAR-H

Comp (88.0752) ---(+2.48%)--> Naked (90.2592) ---(+8.23%)--> HBar (97.6896)

-----

Pure Damage Output Ranking

  1. SCAR-H HB
  2. AK-12 HB
  3. QBZ-95-1 HB
  4. SAR-21 HB
  5. CZ-805 HB
  6. SCAR-H
  7. AK-12
  8. SCAR-H Comp
  9. M416 HB
  10. ACE 23 HB
  11. AK-12 Comp
  12. CZ-805
  13. AUG A3 HB
  14. QBZ-95-1
  15. SAR-21
  16. AR160 HB
  17. CZ-805 Comp
  18. SAR-21 Comp
  19. L85A2 HB
  20. QBZ-95-1 Comp
  21. M416
  22. ACE 23
    ----- average -----
  23. AR160 Comp
  24. M416 Comp
  25. ACE 23 Comp
  26. AR160
  27. AUG A3
  28. AUG A3 Comp
  29. AEK-971 HB
  30. L85A2
  31. L85A2 Comp
  32. Bulldog HB
  33. Bulldog Comp
  34. AEK-971 Comp
  35. AEK-971
  36. F2000 HB
  37. Bulldog
  38. F2000 Comp
  39. F2000
  40. FAMAS Comp
  41. FAMAS HB
  42. FAMAS

Damage Per Degree V-Recoil Ranking

  1. SAR-21
  2. SAR-21 Comp
  3. SAR-21 HB
  4. AR160 Comp
  5. AR160
  6. QBZ-95-1
  7. QBZ-95-1 Comp
  8. AR160 HB
  9. AUG A3
  10. AUG A3 Comp
  11. AK-12
  12. AK-12 Comp
  13. QBZ-95-1 HB
  14. AUG A3 HB
  15. CZ-805 Comp
  16. AK-12 HB
    ----- average -----
  17. SCAR-H
  18. SCAR-H Comp
  19. CZ-805
  20. L85A2
  21. L85A2 Comp
  22. ACE 23 Comp
  23. M416 Comp
  24. ACE 23
  25. M416
  26. F2000 Comp
  27. SCAR-H HB
  28. L85A2 HB
  29. F2000
  30. Bulldog Comp
  31. CZ-805 HB
  32. ACE 23 HB
  33. Bulldog
  34. M416 HB
  35. F2000 HB
  36. AEK-971 Comp
  37. Bulldog HB
  38. AEK-971
  39. FAMAS Comp
  40. FAMAS
  41. AEK-971 HB
  42. FAMAS HB

Combined Ranking - Ease of Use + Accuracy

  1. SAR-21
  2. SAR-21 HB
  3. SAR-21 Comp
  4. QBZ-95-1 HB
  5. QBZ-95-1
  6. AK-12 HB
  7. AK-12
  8. AR160 Comp
  9. AR160
  10. QBZ-95-1 Comp
  11. CZ-805 HB
  12. CZ-805
  13. AR160 HB
  14. SCAR-H HB
  15. AK-12 Comp
  16. SCAR-H
  17. CZ-805 Comp
  18. SCAR-H Comp
  19. AUG A3 HB
  20. AUG A3
  21. AUG A3 Comp
  22. M416 HB
  23. M416
    ----- average -----
  24. M416 Comp
  25. ACE 23 HB
  26. ACE 23
  27. ACE 23 Comp
  28. L85A2 HB
  29. L85A2
  30. L85A2 Comp
  31. Bulldog Comp
  32. AEK-971 HB
  33. F2000 Comp
  34. Bulldog HB
  35. Bulldog
  36. AEK-971 Comp
  37. AEK-971
  38. F2000 HB
  39. F2000
  40. FAMAS Comp
  41. FAMAS
  42. FAMAS HB

-----

Assault Rifles more accurate with Comp than with HBar

  • FAMAS

Assault Rifles more accurate Naked than with Comp

  • ACE 23
  • AK-12
  • AUG A3
  • CZ-805
  • L85A2
  • M416
  • QBZ-95-1
  • SAR-21
  • SCAR-H

Assault Rifles that make almost no difference with Naked or Comp

Less than 1% improvement separate these attachments for these ARs, so they are prime candidates to run Suppressor if not needing the HBar.
  • AEK-971
  • AR160
  • AUG A3
  • L85A2

Most beneficial HBar

  1. QBZ-95-1
  2. L85A2
  3. SAR-21

Assault Rifles that make more sense with Comp

These ARs are statistically more accurate with the HBar but the V-Recoil penalties are so high or the improvements are so little that it's not worth it.
  • AR160
  • Bulldog
  • F2000


Part 1b: Carbines

A-91

Naked (53.85534) ---(+2.89%)--> Comp (55.4092) ---(+10.52%)--> HBar (61.23964)

ACE 21

Comp (65.65482) ---(+3.35%)--> Naked (67.85394) ---(+14.59%)--> HBar (77.75614)

ACE 52

Comp (65.3524) ---(+0.27%)--> Naked (65.531) ---(+11.73%)--> HBar (73.2184)

ACW-R

Naked (55.22748 ) ---(+2.56%)--> Comp (56.64428 ) ---(+7.76%)--> HBar (61.04252)

Ak5C

Comp (67.75692) ---(+2.59%)--> Naked (69.5156) ---(+14.08%)--> HBar (79.30076)

AKU-12

Comp (71.20806) ---(+6.19%)--> Naked (75.61862) ---(+16.36%)--> HBar (87.99252)

G36C

Comp (72.63102) ---(+7.02%)--> Naked (77.72842) ---(+16.90%)--> HBar (90.8677)

MTAR-21

Naked (48.6486) ---(+4.35%)--> Comp (50.7661) ---(+7.68%)--> HBar (54.66538 )

SG553

Naked (57.93018 ) ---(+1.69%)--> Comp (58.91116) ---(+9.25%)--> HBar (64.36122)

Type-95B-1

Comp (67.4751) ---(+5.37%)--> Naked (71.09718 ) ---(+20.39%)--> HBar (85.59628 )

-----

Pure Damage Output Ranking

  1. G36C HB
  2. AKU-12 HB
  3. Type-95B-1 HB
  4. Ak5C HB
  5. ACE 21 HB
  6. G36C
  7. AKU-12
  8. ACE 52 HB
  9. G36C Comp
  10. AKU-12 Comp
  11. Type-95B-1
  12. Ak5C
  13. ACE 21
  14. Ak5C Comp
  15. Type-95B-1 Comp
    ----- average -----
  16. ACE 21 Comp
  17. ACE 52
  18. ACE 52 Comp
  19. SG553 HB
  20. A-91 HB
  21. ACW-R HB
  22. SG553 Comp
  23. SG553
  24. ACW-R Comp
  25. A-91 Comp
  26. ACW-R
  27. MTAR-21 HB
  28. A-91
  29. MTAR-21 Comp
  30. MTAR-21

Damage Per Degree V-Recoil Ranking

  1. Type-95B-1
  2. Type-95B-1 Comp
  3. Type-95B-1 HB
  4. AKU-12
  5. G36C
  6. AKU-12 Comp
  7. AKU-12 HB
  8. G36C Comp
  9. Ak5C
  10. Ak5C Comp
  11. G36C HB
  12. Ak5C HB
  13. SG553 Comp
  14. SG553
    ----- average -----
  15. ACE 21
  16. A-91 Comp
  17. ACE 21 Comp
  18. A-91
  19. ACE 21 HB
  20. SG553 HB
  21. ACE 52
  22. ACE 52 Comp
  23. A-91 HB
  24. ACW-R Comp
  25. ACW-R
  26. ACE 52 HB
  27. MTAR-21 Comp
  28. MTAR-21
  29. ACW-R HB
  30. MTAR-21 HB

Combined Ranking - Ease of Use + Accuracy

  1. Type-95B-1 HB
  2. G36C HB
  3. AKU-12 HB
  4. G36C
  5. Type-95B-1
  6. AKU-12
  7. Ak5C HB
  8. Type-95B-1 Comp
  9. AKU-12 Comp
  10. G36C Comp
  11. ACE 21 HB
  12. Ak5C
  13. Ak5C Comp
    ----- average -----
  14. ACE 21
  15. ACE 52 HB
  16. ACE 21 Comp
  17. ACE 52
  18. ACE 52 Comp
  19. SG553 HB
  20. SG553 Comp
  21. SG553
  22. A-91 HB
  23. A-91 Comp
  24. ACW-R HB
  25. A-91
  26. ACW-R Comp
  27. ACW-R
  28. MTAR-21 HB
  29. MTAR-21 Comp
  30. MTAR-21

-----
No Carbine is statistically more accurate with Comp than HBar.

Carbines more accurate Naked than with Comp

  • ACE 21
  • ACE 52
  • Ak5C
  • AKU-12
  • G36C
  • Type-95B-1

Only the ACE 52 has less than 1% difference separating Naked and Comp.

Most beneficial HBar

  1. Type-95B-1
  2. G36C
  3. AKU-12

Carbines that make more sense with Comp

No specific Carbine has the HBar increase in accuracy clearly outweighed by the increase in V-Recoil, but these came close.
  • ACW-R
  • MTAR-21
  • SG553


Part 1c: The Big List - Assault Rifles and Carbines Combined Rankings

Pure Damage Output Ranking

  1. SCAR-H HB
  2. AK-12 HB
  3. QBZ-95-1 HB
  4. SAR-21 HB
  5. CZ-805 HB
  6. G36C HB
  7. SCAR-H
  8. AK-12
  9. SCAR-H Comp
  10. AKU-12 HB
  11. Type-95B-1 HB
  12. M416 HB
  13. ACE 23 HB
  14. AK-12 Comp
  15. CZ-805
  16. AUG A3 HB
  17. QBZ-95-1
  18. SAR-21
  19. AR160 HB
  20. CZ-805 Comp
  21. SAR-21 Comp
  22. L85A2 HB
  23. QBZ-95-1 Comp
  24. Ak5C HB
  25. M416
  26. ACE 23
  27. AR160 Comp
  28. M416 Comp
  29. ACE 21 HB
  30. G36C
  31. ACE 23 Comp
  32. AR160
  33. AUG A3
  34. AUG A3 Comp
  35. AKU-12
  36. AEK-971 HB
  37. L85A2
    ----- average -----
  38. L85A2 Comp
  39. Bulldog HB
  40. ACE 52 HB
  41. G36C Comp
  42. Bulldog Comp
  43. AKU-12 Comp
  44. Type-95B-1
  45. AEK-971 Comp
  46. Ak5C
  47. AEK-971
  48. F2000 HB
  49. Bulldog
  50. ACE 21
  51. Ak5C Comp
  52. Type-95B-1 Comp
  53. F2000 Comp
  54. ACE 21 Comp
  55. ACE 52
  56. ACE 52 Comp
  57. SG553 HB
  58. F2000
  59. A-91 HB
  60. ACW-R HB
  61. SG553 Comp
  62. SG553
  63. ACW-R Comp
  64. A-91 Comp
  65. ACW-R
  66. FAMAS Comp
  67. MTAR-21 HB
  68. FAMAS HB
  69. A-91
  70. FAMAS
  71. MTAR-21 Comp
  72. MTAR-21

Damage Per Degree V-Recoil Ranking

  1. SAR-21
  2. SAR-21 Comp
  3. SAR-21 HB
  4. AR160 Comp
  5. AR160
  6. QBZ-95-1
  7. QBZ-95-1 Comp
  8. QBZ-95-1 HB
  9. AR160 HB
  10. AK-12
  11. AUG A3
  12. AUG A3 Comp
  13. CZ-805
  14. AK-12 Comp
  15. CZ-805 Comp
  16. Type-95B-1
  17. Type-95B-1 Comp
  18. AUG A3 HB
  19. AK-12 HB
  20. M416
  21. Type-95B-1 HB
  22. CZ-805 HB
  23. M416 Comp
  24. AKU-12
  25. SCAR-H
  26. SCAR-H Comp
  27. ACE 23
  28. L85A2
  29. ACE 23 Comp
  30. G36C
  31. L85A2 Comp
  32. AKU-12 Comp
    ----- average -----
  33. AKU-12 HB
  34. G36C Comp
  35. M416 HB
  36. Ak5C
  37. Ak5C Comp
  38. G36C HB
  39. F2000 Comp
  40. SCAR-H HB
  41. F2000
  42. L85A2 HB
  43. ACE 23 HB
  44. Bulldog Comp
  45. Ak5C HB
  46. Bulldog
  47. SG553 Comp
  48. SG553
  49. AEK-971 Comp
  50. ACE 21
  51. AEK-971
  52. A-91 Comp
  53. ACE 21 Comp
  54. F2000 HB
  55. A-91
  56. ACE 21 HB
  57. SG553 HB
  58. ACE 52
  59. ACE 52 Comp
  60. Bulldog HB
  61. A-91 HB
  62. AEK-971 HB
  63. FAMAS Comp
  64. ACW-R Comp
  65. ACW-R
  66. ACE 52 HB
  67. FAMAS
  68. MTAR-21 Comp
  69. MTAR-21
  70. ACW-R HB
  71. MTAR-21 HB
  72. FAMAS HB

Combined Ranking - Ease of Use + Accuracy

  1. SAR-21
  2. SAR-21 HB
  3. SAR-21 Comp
  4. QBZ-95-1 HB
  5. QBZ-95-1
  6. AK-12 HB
  7. AK-12
  8. AR160 Comp
  9. AR160
  10. QBZ-95-1 Comp
  11. CZ-805 HB
  12. CZ-805
  13. AR160 HB
  14. SCAR-H HB
  15. AK-12 Comp
  16. SCAR-H
  17. CZ-805 Comp
  18. Type-95B-1 HB
  19. SCAR-H Comp
  20. AUG A3 HB
  21. G36C HB
  22. AUG A3
  23. AKU-12 HB
  24. AUG A3 Comp
  25. M416 HB
  26. M416
  27. M416 Comp
  28. ACE 23 HB
  29. ACE 23
  30. G36C
  31. Type-95B-1
  32. ACE 23 Comp
  33. AKU-12
  34. L85A2 HB
  35. L85A2
  36. Ak5C HB
  37. L85A2 Comp
    ----- average -----
  38. Type-95B-1 Comp
  39. AKU-12 Comp
  40. G36C Comp
  41. ACE 21 HB
  42. Ak5C
  43. Bulldog Comp
  44. Ak5C Comp
  45. AEK-971 HB
  46. F2000 Comp
  47. Bulldog HB
  48. Bulldog
  49. AEK-971 Comp
  50. AEK-971
  51. F2000 HB
  52. ACE 21
  53. F2000
  54. ACE 52 HB
  55. ACE 21 Comp
  56. ACE 52
  57. ACE 52 Comp
  58. SG553 HB
  59. SG553 Comp
  60. SG553
  61. A-91 HB
  62. A-91 Comp
  63. ACW-R HB
  64. A-91
  65. ACW-R Comp
  66. FAMAS Comp
  67. ACW-R
  68. MTAR-21 HB
  69. FAMAS
  70. MTAR-21 Comp
  71. FAMAS HB
  72. MTAR-21

This post has been edited 10 times, last edit by "Veritable" (Mar 13th 2015, 10:10pm)


C0llis

Up and down. Bounce all around

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: Apr 15th 2013

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Location: Sweden

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2

Wednesday, March 11th 2015, 1:50am

Great initiative, but I think some things could be improved:

Firstly, Hrec should be balanced before it is input to hitrater, it seems like weapons with unbalanced recoil get odd results (like comp being better than HB on CZ-805 and M416). Balancing Hrec would simulate compensating for the mean of the Hrec, which I think would make for more representative results.

Secondly, I think that the long bursts are a source of bias against the comp and for the HB (due to the way they modify SIPS), but on the other hand, in order to make the comparison completely fair it would be necessary to calculate optimal burst lengths for the different attachments and weapons which is a bit outside the scope of this analysis. Then again, I could be completely wrong about that, it's late here and I should already be in bed...

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

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: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

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3

Wednesday, March 11th 2015, 1:01pm

Nice thread, but a few things:

Where's the F2K in any of the summaries of optimal attachments at the end?

Also, what does "Pure damage output ranking," "Damage per V-Recoil Ranking," and "Combined Ranking - Ease of use + Accuracy" mean?

Relating to what C0llis said, maybe you could put in the stats for two or three round bursts? I think this would vary the results by quite a bit.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


  • "Veritable" started this thread

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: Dec 8th 2013

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4

Thursday, March 12th 2015, 2:09am

Firstly, Hrec should be balanced before it is input to hitrater, it seems like weapons with unbalanced recoil get odd results (like comp being better than HB on CZ-805 and M416)

Yeah, it didn't pass the smell test, and also it seemed to have punished the QBZ-95-1 HBar despite we all know what Rezal can do with it. So, I have re-done the affected weapons (any with asymmetrical H-Recoil) by balancing both sides. All the data and rankings are updated.

Secondly, I think that the long bursts are a source of bias against the comp and for the HB (due to the way they modify SIPS)

Relating to what C0llis said, maybe you could put in the stats for two or three round bursts? I think this would vary the results by quite a bit.

I chose to run the burst lengths as the BTK, because that is the absolute minimum number you can fire in order to get the kill... and we all know that the point of shooting these weapons is to get a kill ;) Also, that means despite having 4 different damage models included in this study, all the results can be compared with each other, as they all arrive at the same goal: trying to do ~100+ damage.

Longer bursts will also show the H-Recoil and SIPS effects more clearly than shorter ones. That is partly why the M16A4 and M4 are not studied: they will utterly lose the "efficiency" test due to having to deal with FSM 2x (3x for the M4) in order to reach the BTK number, while the automatic ARs only once.

*edit* Also, not that I agree with the SIPS buff for the HBar, but it is what it is currently... so these data are also what they are. If you can control it, then OF COURSE the HBar is the most accurate choice (unless your combined H-Recoil is a big fat 1, like the FAMAS), as it directly buffs almost everything that has to do with accuracy. Thankfully the Combined Ranking (explained below) kind of put it back into its place, so to speak.

Where's the F2K in any of the summaries of optimal attachments at the end?

I try not to draw too many conclusions; instead, the data and rankings are here to help you! In the F2K's case, HBar is more accurate than Comp is more accurate than Naked, but looks like the improvement is not enough to justify the V-Recoil hit. 23% more V-Recoil vs. less than 5% improvement in accuracy, still your choice but I'd think about it!

Also, what does "Pure damage output ranking," "Damage per V-Recoil Ranking," and "Combined Ranking - Ease of use + Accuracy" mean?

Pure Damage Output = The average damage you can expect to do with this setup, firiing a burst with a length of the BTK, shooting a million times at a BF4 target 55m away, and you able to counter V-Recoil fully plus centering the H-Recoil. The value should top out to slightly over 100, and should be very similar for all the damage models. Thus, higher value the better, no matter the model.

Damage per V-Recoil = The Pure Damage Output value divided by the total accumulated V-Recoil that the weapon gives you. So you can think of it as Damage / Degree. Higher the value, then the easier the gun is to use, as you do more damage with less work.

Combined Ranking is the above 2, added together then divided by 2. If a weapon is statistically more accurate with the HBar vs. the Comp but the V-Recoil penalty is not worth it, like your F2000, then the Comp shows up here as a higher ranking.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Veritable" (Mar 12th 2015, 2:50am)


Zer0Cod3x

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Thursday, March 12th 2015, 11:49am

I chose to run the burst lengths as the BTK, because that is the absolute minimum number you can fire in order to get the kill... and we all know that the point of shooting these weapons is to get a kill ;) Also, that means despite having 4 different damage models included in this study, all the results can be compared with each other, as they all arrive at the same goal: trying to do ~100+ damage.

But what if you're someone who does shoot small bursts (like me :))? I'd investigate it on hitrater myself but it doesn't work on a Mac. As I did say it would probably vary these results. I'd like to see how these attachments vary when you shoot in two to three round bursts as I do that with a lot of guns (such as my FAMAS) and I'd like to see whether the comp, HB or no barrel is benefiting them. It'd be appreciated :)
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


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Thursday, March 12th 2015, 1:25pm

Shouldn't you also take underbarrel attachments into account?

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Thursday, March 12th 2015, 1:35pm

I don't understand the "average" appearing multiple times. Can someone explain for me?

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Friday, March 13th 2015, 1:12am

I'd like to see how these attachments vary when you shoot in two to three round bursts as I do that with a lot of guns (such as my FAMAS) and I'd like to see whether the comp, HB or no barrel is benefiting them. It'd be appreciated :)

Here are the FAMAS results with Burst Length of 3:

Naked: avg. 1.9891 hits, avg. damage 35.8038
HBar: avg. 2.0232 hits, avg. damage 36.4176
Comp: avg. 2.1559 hits, avg. damage 38.8062
Naked ---(1.71%)--> HBar ---(6.56%)--> Comp
Result is not changed vs. Burst Length of 6, HBar is slightly worse while Comp is about the same.

We can even look at it practically: you use the FAMAS Comp in 3 rounds burst mode, fire -> let spread recover -> fire, 6 rounds total, vs. your opponent using a QBZ-95-1 HBar and holding the trigger to also fire 6 rounds total.

QBZ-95-1 fires the 6 rounds in ~0.5538s, and with HBar on average will do 92.9502 damage to you as my table shows.
Your FAMAS can fire the 3 rounds in 0.18s, so 6 rounds will take 0.36s, plus time to recover the accumulated SIPS per burst which will take ~0.0225s, so you're at ~0.3825s, faster than the QBZ. However, you are also only doing 77.6124 damage to him, according to the 3-rounds Hitrater result above. Better than the 55.1088 you would have done if you held down the trigger, but you're still behind.
You have time leftover, though! So you can fire another burst, after you recover the SIPS, which takes you another ~0.1913s. Now you are at 0.5738s, 0.02s slower than the QBZ, but at least you dealt 116.42 damage and can secure the kill...
...but at what cost? So many things have to go right for the FAMAS user: getting the ~0.0225s Spread Recovery time correct, and perfectly countering 4.4 degrees of V-Recoil.
Meanwhile, the QBZ guy holds down the trigger, deals with 2.184 degrees of V-Recoil, and has a very high chance of having all 6 bullets hit (and thus killing you while you're firing the 3rd burst).

Shouldn't you also take underbarrel attachments into account?

AFG = Will universally lower the V-Recoil experienced, but I doubt the "useability" ranking will change, as all the FSMs are quite close and only a percentage is affected.
Ergo = Does not affect accuracy for ADS - Not Moving.
Stubby = Well, this might do something, especially in conjunction with the Compensator. Let's look at the Bulldog, with the highest SIPS in the study....

Bulldog Comp, 55m, 5 rounds, 1 million tries: avg. 3.0092 hits, avg. damage 72.2208
Bulldog Comp Stubby, same settings: avg. 3.1307 hits, avg. damage 75.1368
That is an improvement of 4.04% in accuracy.

As for the lowest SIPS, which is the SAR-21....

SAR-21 Comp, 55m, 6 rounds, 1 million tries: avg. 4.5243 hits, avg. damage 81.4374
SAR-21 Comp Stubby, same settings: avg. 4.7119 hits, avg. damage 84.8142
Accuracy +4.15%. I guess that's what you can pencil in if you decide to forego the Ergo or AFG and use Stubby instead. Though, I'd say you probably need even longer bursts than these BTK settings to see real benefits.

I don't understand the "average" appearing multiple times. Can someone explain for me?

Hitrater spits out an average "hit rate" for the length of your burst. Say you are using a gun that does 24 damage, and fire a 10 rounds burst, 10 times. If you are really close, so close that neither SIPS nor H-Recoil will pull you off target, then all 10 rounds will hit, and I will record that as 10 * 24 = 240 damage.

Say you are standing far enough to cause misses, then Hitrater spits out that in the 10 tries, on average 7.5 out of 10 will hit. It could mean that out of 10 tries, 2 times all 10 hits; 2 times only 5 of them hits; 3 times you get 8 hits, and 3 more times you get 7 hits. You add them all together, you get 75 hits out of 100 total samples, or an average of 7.5 per 10 rounds. Then I will record that as 180 damage.

Obviously the more times you run the simulation, the more accurate it gets. Hitrater seems very efficient, so I do 1 Million runs.

*edit* Forgot to mention, Carbines results and Combined AR + Carbines rankings are posted in the OP.

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Friday, March 13th 2015, 5:50pm

Would you be willing to add Support weapons and PDWs?
Actually, PDWs wouldn't be needed, but it would be nice.
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Friday, March 13th 2015, 7:19pm

why 55m, BTK drops at 39-40m?