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Oscar

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Monday, April 13th 2015, 2:59pm

@iota

That is the point, though. I did not say whether that one shot was one out of one, or one out of a hundred, or even if the hit was at 10 metres at a standing target or at 300.

Also, as pointed above, montages are simply highlights, ergo, purposely showcasing the better parts, and should in no way be a means of measuring "skill".
Bro of Legion, the lurker ninja mod | Tesla FTW | RNG is evil.

Quoted from "MsMuchLove"

I find majority of the complaints I hear about this game somehow never appear in my games.

C0llis

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Monday, April 13th 2015, 3:04pm

The aim of the game isn't to stroke your e-peen. It does not matter one bit that it is more difficult to use a sniper rifle in cqb than a shotgun. BA's are long range weapons and they shouldn't be viable up close, that it's hard and "skilled" doesn't matter.

If you want to perform up close you should take a weapon suited for close range, like a shotgun or carbine. If you roll with a BA you should have to rely on your secondary up close.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

This post by "Zormau" (Monday, April 13th 2015, 3:14pm) has been deleted by user "Miffyli" (Monday, April 13th 2015, 3:23pm) with the following reason: way offtopic, wrong game/section

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Monday, April 13th 2015, 4:31pm

i think people here are still missing the point that sometimes people just want to have fun and don't want to go play other games to do that, if one wants to just go aggro recon, why have it go on one of the older battlefield games/cod/others when he can just try to use it in bf4? he probably won't do good anyway considering all the downsides, i see all this butthurt at recons as senseless

if they're too close, they're scrubs, if they're too far they suck, if they are too much still they ain't good, if they put certain attachments on their guun, their stupid.

holy shit, let them just fucking play, pub games aren't mlg or esl, it's not like everyone uses them, they are high skill-reward weapons that nearly nobody uses because unless the traget it's still they are so hard to use that ain't worth using unless you want to have fun, which means: nobody is goning to use them in a "professional" game mode, so basically you're asking to take sniper rifles out of the game entirely as there will always be something wrong with them from your "use this because it's mathematically better and works with the RPS system" mindset.

also, don't know if you noticed but we'gone very ot in this couple pages.
"I'm just a loot whore."


stuff mostly unrelated to BF4 that interests nobody



bf4
on 13/05/2016
23rd M320FB user on pc(13/05/16)
rush mode score RANK:2794 TOP:2% OUT OF:215398
obliteration mode scoreRANK:994 TOP:1% OUT OF:159466
handgun medals RANK:2236 TOP:2% OUT OF:143874
longest headshot RANK:9512 TOP:4% OUT OF:257589
recon score RANK:10871 TOP:4% OUT OF:274899
general score per minute RANK:10016 TOP:4% OUT OF:294774

bf3
31/3/2012 4:58:

Headshot distance RANK:493* TOP:0%
Revives per assault minute RANK: 6019 TOP: 3%
Headshots / kill percentage RANK:25947 TOP:13%
MVP ribbons RANK:18824 TOP:11%

*= 6 if we not count the EOD BOT headshots

@kataklism

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Oscar

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Monday, April 13th 2015, 4:43pm

And with fun comes the variations on what people perceive as "fun".

I haven't read back the whole discussion in one go, just popped into the therad for moments at a time, but I don't recall fun being mentioned. Ctrl+F confirms this.

The thing is people commenting on how the SR class, I mean, bolt-action sniper rifles (SR338 rip) to be improved in some way just because "skill should be rewarded". If I manage to land a buckshot shot at 100m doesn't mean that I should be rewarded in some way (hitmarkers aren't enough mate), simply because it is not effective at that range.

If people can overcome the disadvantages of using long range weaponry with troubled CQB performance in CQB, good for them. Suggesting that said actions be more "rewarded" is pretty silly and gets tiring after a while. It's ok to use whatever you want at the ranges you want to, but asking for a "reward" just because of doing so is not. Encouraging bad gameplay choices is something I'm not a fan of.

If I drive my car on a bicycle only lane (example), should I not be fined because it takes more skill to fit my car in a narrower road? It's not the best analogy I could've come up with, but you get the point. Make a choice and accept the consequences, don't ask for a priviledge or something along those lines just because you're handicapping yourself.
Bro of Legion, the lurker ninja mod | Tesla FTW | RNG is evil.

Quoted from "MsMuchLove"

I find majority of the complaints I hear about this game somehow never appear in my games.

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Monday, April 13th 2015, 5:03pm

well i joined the discussion like you, but didn't see anywhere people asking to be rewarded for aggro sniping, if that is; sure it is fun and takes some sort of skill, but it is in no way ideal, kinda like the people who took down jets with an rpg and asked to be rewarded for that, just because it's harder it doesn't mean it must be rewarded, that'd work against optimal gameplay, if you do weird things, you do them to have fun and show off, not to get points, at that point battlefield would be more like cod than battlefield.
"I'm just a loot whore."


stuff mostly unrelated to BF4 that interests nobody



bf4
on 13/05/2016
23rd M320FB user on pc(13/05/16)
rush mode score RANK:2794 TOP:2% OUT OF:215398
obliteration mode scoreRANK:994 TOP:1% OUT OF:159466
handgun medals RANK:2236 TOP:2% OUT OF:143874
longest headshot RANK:9512 TOP:4% OUT OF:257589
recon score RANK:10871 TOP:4% OUT OF:274899
general score per minute RANK:10016 TOP:4% OUT OF:294774

bf3
31/3/2012 4:58:

Headshot distance RANK:493* TOP:0%
Revives per assault minute RANK: 6019 TOP: 3%
Headshots / kill percentage RANK:25947 TOP:13%
MVP ribbons RANK:18824 TOP:11%

*= 6 if we not count the EOD BOT headshots

@kataklism

ARGUMENT DESTROYED 100

ENEMY KILLED [REASON] JSLICE20 100


WRITING SPREE STOPPED 500

link to full-size old avatar:
http://i.imgur.com/4X0321O.gif




C0llis

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Monday, April 13th 2015, 5:14pm

A somewhat fitting analogy is IMO the people who want spread to be completely removed. If they can compensate* perfectly for recoil and keep the crosshair at the enemy throughout an entire burst, even at extremely long distances, why shouldn't their "skill" get rewarded with hits and kills?

The answer is simple: because that isn't good balance. The balance of the game hinges on there not being one weapon for every situation and range; instead some weapons are better than others at certain things and worse than other weapons at other things.

Somebody having extremely good aim is reward enough in itself, rewarding them further by removing spread, giving a long range weapon potential to shine in CQB, giving them immunity to suppression, or whatever else they can come up with, is unwarranted.

*Neglecting the random nature of Hrec.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Monday, April 13th 2015, 5:46pm

@DerAstrophysiker

As others have said before me, the first objective of any weapon in the game is not to stroke your e-peen.

It is to make sure it is fulfilling its design ideas effectively.



Go into a Conquest game with a Bolt Action. Try to get kills with said Bolt Action. Go for variety, shoot at both stationary and moving targets. Tell me how much you get done compared to an Assault, Support, Engineer, or Recon not using a Sniper RIfle.

Sniping shouldn't be some Cool Kids' Club.

Snipers are for long range. Make them actually good at long range. Stop making them suitable for CQB. This is what a reversed damage model accomplishes. It takes away the close quarters ability of sniper rifles and puts it into long range killing potential. They'll be effective the farther the target is but should someone slip in close, you'll need to use a sidearm. This is the exact opposite of a shotgun.

Do I care that it "takes the 'skill' out of sniping?" Not particularly.

There is something seriously wrong when you revere "skill" so much that a weapon is borderline useless for its own role due to its own limitations. A limitation like being effective only when hitting the smallest part of the target at long range where you have to account for gravity, movement, travel time, and the fact that you need a good amount of zoom to actually see what you want to hit.

DMRs are better than Bolt Actions for long range combat because they are easier to grasp. Their 3 shot kill is faster than a Bolt Action rechamber and they're not limited by having to get only headshots. They're accurate enough to fulfill their duty in this kind of long range engagement. Bolt Actions only win out over DMRs at much longer engagement ranges. I like to call these ranges the "pissing contest" ranges because that's really what they amount to. Sure you just pulled off that sick 3000m headshot. Is it likely to help your team win? Probably not.



If a Bolt Action is only moderately effective for its own job, that is because of the strict requirements for effective usage. It may be so strict, that it's time to reevaluate what it should do. The Pro should not be rewarded for taking the wrong weapon to the engagement. Their aiming ability should not be able to bail them out of something that is clearly a suboptimal engagement situation for them. This is not twisted logic at all. This is something called balance. Gear up for the engagements you're expecting. "Skill" is not the first thing that designers should have in mind. They should be focused on making sure that what they're designing is actually going to get the job done.

If you're going to keep harping on about "skill," then I really have nothing more to say than to ask you to actually read the Reversed Sniper Damage Model thread.

You should also answer this question I had posed in that thread: Would you be willing to pay your surgeon more if he was going to use a chainsaw for the opening incision of surgery? Clearly using a chainsaw isn't truly suited for surgery but that doesn't really matter. If he's "skilled" enough to be able to use the wrong tools of the trade, he should be rewarded for that skill right?
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With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Apr 13th 2015, 6:11pm)


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Monday, April 13th 2015, 6:02pm

Why no bump of 75 BA MinDmg? "Assist Counts as Kill" you know! 100 MaxDmg is just to give BAs at least some 'edge' of survivability in surprising CQB fights.
still playin' Motorstorm

NoctyrneSAGA

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Monday, April 13th 2015, 6:04pm

Why no bump of 75 BA MinDmg? "Assist Counts as Kill" you know! 100 MaxDmg is just to give BAs at least some 'edge' of survivability in surprising CQB fights.


Because Hardcore
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.