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NoctyrneSAGA

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21

Sunday, April 27th 2014, 11:50pm

@Misnomer

Any sort of math that could be done is still dependent on whether or not the guy was aiming.

With Visual Recoil, we have no guarantee that the guy was on targtet.
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Monday, April 28th 2014, 12:03am


I would love to see the math on that, though I am too lazy to do it myself.

Wut? I just did the math two posts earlier.
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C0llis

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23

Monday, April 28th 2014, 12:17am

This is the PKP's ADS chart



It is actually large enough that you could fit 2 maybe 3 soldiers standing in a line in there.
Nope. The distance between the support guy and the door was ~3 meters in the video, and the player running in front of it would have to be even closer. According to the killcard in the video the PKP had a stubby and no barrel attachment. A magdump (with recoil control) at 3 meters range (checked with the XM25) on the test range with a PKP with a stubby yields the attached dispersion. I have also attached a test range dummy at 3 meters range with the grouping superimposed for reference. Given, the front of the dummy is not a perfect substitute for the side of a sprinting player, but since the dummy was 3 meters away and the real player was closer than that I would wager that it is close enough to be a good comparison.

Thus, spread and the deviation caused by horizontal recoil cannot account for the missed shots. However, RPM and player sprint speed might, but I don't know what the player sprint speed is. Do you happen to know what it is?

Some quick math:
PKP RPM is 600, which means 1 bullet every 0.1 second. I'd say that the cross section of the PKP grouping at 3 meters is ~25 cm (which is in accordance to the grouping that can be observed in the video) which means that the player sprint speed will have to be in the range of 2.5 m/s or higher in order to stand any chance of clearing the "danger zone" between two bullets. TSOR gives that the average human jogging speed is slightly above 2 m/s, avg. running speed is ~6 m/s and avg. sprinting speed is ~9 m/s. So it is seems likely that a player would be able to sprint through perpendicular gunfire at 600 RPM from a gun at 3 meters range. That is of course if my math is correct and Google didn't fuck me over on running speeds.
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And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

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24

Monday, April 28th 2014, 12:23am

Some quick math:
PKP RPM is 600, which means 1 bullet every 0.1 second. I'd say that the cross section of the PKP grouping at 3 meters is ~25 cm (which is in accordance to the grouping that can be observed in the video) which means that the player sprint speed will have to be in the range of 2.5 m/s or higher in order to stand any chance of clearing the "danger zone" between two bullets. TSOR gives that the average human jogging speed is slightly above 2 m/s, avg. running speed is ~6 m/s and avg. sprinting speed is ~9 m/s. So it is seems likely that a player would be able to sprint through perpendicular gunfire at 600 RPM from a gun at 3 meters range. That is of course if my math is correct and Google didn't fuck me over on running speeds.

i'm 100% sure that the sprinting speed in bf4 is above 2 M/S,actually,i think it's above 6,but i can't remember exactly how much,probably between 6 and 10.8,i'm sure someone posted datas somewhere on the site.

p.s.:also,darn,all that aliasing made my eyes bleed.
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NoctyrneSAGA

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25

Monday, April 28th 2014, 12:38am

This is the PKP's ADS chart



It is actually large enough that you could fit 2 maybe 3 soldiers standing in a line in there.
Nope. The distance between the support guy and the door was ~3 meters in the video, and the player running in front of it would have to be even closer. According to the killcard in the video the PKP had a stubby and no barrel attachment. A magdump (with recoil control) at 3 meters range (checked with the XM25) on the test range with a PKP with a stubby yields the attached dispersion. I have also attached a test range dummy at 3 meters range with the grouping superimposed for reference. Given, the front of the dummy is not a perfect substitute for the side of a sprinting player, but since the dummy was 3 meters away and the real player was closer than that I would wager that it is close enough to be a good comparison.

Thus, spread and the deviation caused by horizontal recoil cannot account for the missed shots. However, RPM and player sprint speed might, but I don't know what the player sprint speed is. Do you happen to know what it is?

Some quick math:
PKP RPM is 600, which means 1 bullet every 0.1 second. I'd say that the cross section of the PKP grouping at 3 meters is ~25 cm (which is in accordance to the grouping that can be observed in the video) which means that the player sprint speed will have to be in the range of 2.5 m/s or higher in order to stand any chance of clearing the "danger zone" between two bullets. TSOR gives that the average human jogging speed is slightly above 2 m/s, avg. running speed is ~6 m/s and avg. sprinting speed is ~9 m/s. So it is seems likely that a player would be able to sprint through perpendicular gunfire at 600 RPM from a gun at 3 meters range. That is of course if my math is correct and Google didn't fuck me over on running speeds.



Went on to an empty server, equipped an identical PKP Loadout (HBAR, LASER, STUBBY) and went to work. ADS had the shots land really close together. Hip Fire was nowhere near as accurate.

However, the fire rate still allows the possibility for someone to run through unharmed. Again, unless we see him purposely aiming at the target, there's still doubt as to what is going on.


Standard running = 4 m/s = 14.4 km/h
Standard sprinting = 6.45 m/s = 23, 2 km/h
Perk sprinting = 7.01 m/s = 25,5 km/h
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Apr 28th 2014, 1:01am)


Misnomer

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26

Monday, April 28th 2014, 12:54am

Some quick math:
PKP RPM is 600, which means 1 bullet every 0.1 second. I'd say that the cross section of the PKP grouping at 3 meters is ~25 cm (which is in accordance to the grouping that can be observed in the video) which means that the player sprint speed will have to be in the range of 2.5 m/s or higher in order to stand any chance of clearing the "danger zone" between two bullets. TSOR gives that the average human jogging speed is slightly above 2 m/s, avg. running speed is ~6 m/s and avg. sprinting speed is ~9 m/s. So it is seems likely that a player would be able to sprint through perpendicular gunfire at 600 RPM from a gun at 3 meters range. That is of course if my math is correct and Google didn't fuck me over on running speeds.

i'm 100% sure that the sprinting speed in bf4 is above 2 M/S,actually,i think it's above 6,but i can't remember exactly how much,probably between 6 and 10.8,i'm sure someone posted datas somewhere on the site.
.


It wouldn't surprise me if it was over 10 m/s. I once did the math in COD4 an found it was faster than Usain Bolt. (10.4-5 M/s).

That being said, the quick and dirty math worries me a little still because we don't have the thickness of the body (hitboxes) either. Even at 4 inches or so, that is still more time to fully exit the area.

Also, 3 meters is an overestimate. Go to the video at :21. From the end of the gun to the first place a hitbox would be (not far from the door frame) we are talking closer to 1 meter. I would believe 3 meters from the open door. So that is a difference between the spread pattern and the hitbox location.

The quick and dirty math is probably going to take too many assumptions to yield a good answer (thus why I am too lazy to eliminate enough assumptions to make it matter).

Trying to replicate this is probably a better option. If this is more than a fluke of luck and chance, then it is a problem. He does this THREE TIMES in the video.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Misnomer" (Apr 28th 2014, 1:13am)


elementofprgress

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27

Monday, April 28th 2014, 1:39am

@Misnomer
(fourms won't let me quote post atm)

In science an experiment is only successful if the results can be reproduced by someone else. Don't take this as OMG TRUST NO ONE!!! but always do your own research, experiments, fact checking, etc when ever possible. Not just in Battlefield but in general. Learning first hand is always the best. He may do it three times in the video but that is the video but...well that is the video. Who knows how many times he did it to get the recording or what other variables could have come into play.

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Misnomer

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Monday, April 28th 2014, 1:48am

@Misnomer
(fourms won't let me quote post atm)

In science an experiment is only successful if the results can be reproduced by someone else. Don't take this as OMG TRUST NO ONE!!! but always do your own research, experiments, fact checking, etc when ever possible. Not just in Battlefield but in general. Learning first hand is always the best. He may do it three times in the video but that is the video but...well that is the video. Who knows how many times he did it to get the recording or what other variables could have come into play.


Yeah I get that, thus why I recommended replicating it. I lack the BF4 friends to do this type of testing anymore and I mostly trust what symthic is able to recreate. Pure math has its appeals, but the quick and dirty math is likely to mislead (we have already identified several variables for which we have no values).

C0llis

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29

Monday, April 28th 2014, 2:31am

p.s.:also,darn,all that aliasing made my eyes bleed.
Sorry, I recorded it on my (shitty when it comes to BF4) laptop, I have everything on low but it is still unplayable due to variable FPS. I'm forced to use it until I get back my RMA'd mobo for my stationary.



Went on to an empty server, equipped an identical PKP Loadout (HBAR, LASER, STUBBY) and went to work. ADS had the shots land really close together. Hip Fire was nowhere near as accurate.

However, the fire rate still allows the possibility for someone to run through unharmed. Again, unless we see him purposely aiming at the target, there's still doubt as to what is going on.

Sorry for not seeing that, I started writing my post before you posted that.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

NoctyrneSAGA

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30

Monday, April 28th 2014, 2:36am

@C0llis

No worries. But the Heavy Barrel does change things up. Higher precision weapons are easier to miss with if your aim is horrible. Slap on the fact that not a lot of people know about Visual Recoil and we potentially have someone who will always miss their shots even at point blank. Which is pretty much why I think it's hard to believe the original video.
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"Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours.

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