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VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

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Tuesday, March 4th 2014, 3:27pm

Visual Recoil

So this is a new feature in BF4 that really annoyed me in the last few days, but I am still a bit unclear about some stuff, and I figured a new topic on it and some discussion would not hurt. What visual recoil does is add recoil to the weapon that has no effect on the bullets going out of your barrel, but applies to your sight only. This can be easily tested on the range with an equipped laser sight, when going ADS your sight will move, the laser will stay on the target though, and this is where the bullets will hit still. Therefore the laser point can always be trusted when aquiring targets.
My best guess why they implemented it is the disappearance of suppression in BF4, or at least the irrelevance of it now. There we had recoil, individual weapon spread and suppression that would increase the spread but is applied to you by another player, basically a kind of debuff and that was the biggest gripe some players had with the system. I was always a fan of it, but now it is gone, and I guess that is why visual recoil is implemented. It creates another mechanism that has a negative effect on accuracy and that is largely taken from the player's hands, but "built-in". However as said, you can partly mitigate it by using the laser sight mainly as a reference of aiming.

There are some inconsistencies though:
1. Laser sights and sights are often enough, not 100% aligned to one another (most notably on the QBZ) resulting in awkward gunfights when you add visual recoil to that.
2. The amount of visual recoil seems to be tied to weapons, and to sights as well, ironsights usually wield the least visual recoil, and it seems to favour some sights/weapons over the other (I never had an issue with wobbling sights on the L85, the AUG has a fair bit, but the QBZ tops it all)
3. It also seems that the higher the firerate the less irritating it gets, for example, with the CZ and the FAMAS I never even noticed it, while with the QBZ family I feel it in every shot. Is my reasoning right when saying that high RPMs suffer the least because you can not notice the wobble since it is so fast, and therefore make automatic low recoil guns less of an alternative?
4. Since the best reference point is the laser sight, it creates a 100% reason to use it on weapons with high visual recoil, since it is a true aimpoint. When you do not have one, deciding which is true recoil and which is not becomes a nuisance.
5. This is my biggest issue: It is a totally unrealistic implementation, which is seen best when equipping a laser sight. The sight itself wobbles around like it is mounted on a spring but the laser stays on the spot. This is physically just not possible. And that is why I think it is stupid. People said the same about suppression, because it made the bullet fly out of the barrel with an angle, however suppression was used to mimic real suppression, or being under fire, in an AUTHENTIC way. That was fine by me. Visual recoil though is just dumb, because laser and sight are aligned to one another, stand in a relation and therefore one can not wobble around with the other one staying still.

However I am not 100% clear about some things. It all boils down to feel. The Coyote in general seems to wobble the most, but this might be caused by the open sight itself. Also it seems that chinese faction weapons suffer the most from it, when comparing the MP7 and the JS2 the result is awful. There are no real measurements we have on that topic and I would not know how to start but this is something that really annoys me.

Tendencially I agree with mechanics like this, especially when looking back at suppression to mimic a combat situation in a way that it still is fun, but the way it is implemented makes no sense to me. I do not want Battlefield to be a game of twitch reflexes where aiming is the ultimate measure of skill like CS or similar games. I want an authentic battlefield game, that is still casual enough to draw in masses, if you get my drift.
In terms of change, I would obviously want it totally gone and the suppression system 1:1 implemented in BF4, which would give the LMGs a real authentic niche again. In order to tweak visual recoil though, I can only think of tying in the laser sight AND toning done the effect as well, otherwise the accuracy drop would be too immense, I guess. I do not know if you could tie it to the real recoil either, or to remove it and add more recoil to all weapons, but that would be too much as well for every firefight.


So what do you guys think of this system, why did DICE choose to implement it and what is the result? Any answers and maybe even some observations are much appreciated.

mmacola

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Tuesday, March 4th 2014, 3:44pm

I think it is stupid. Guns like the PKP pecheneg get a ridiculous amount of visual recoil. No, really. Set up a bipod and hold the trigger. Absolutely terrible.

Also some things I noticed:

-The higher the optic zoom, the less visual recoil (as in the laser dot and the optic dot/chevron don't stray very far from each other)
-The back of the gun model is the things that really moves around. That's why iron sights seem more stable, since the front iron barely moves.
-Given the above, guns that get their optics closer to the front of the barrel suffer less from visual recoil.

Plus I think it could be removed if the player base were aware of the issue. After all, it was implemented in a patch

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Tuesday, March 4th 2014, 6:03pm

AFAIK DICE has not done anything to acknowledge that visual recoil may be a bug, and not for want of asking.

If it IS an intended feature then it might have been introduced to counteract the general trend towards more accurate infantry weapons (in general, compared to BF3), making accurate bursting take more skill since now you have an added factor to "learn" and compensate for. From what I've noticed the visual recoil patterns are somewhat predictable so it's possible to adapt to it I guess.

At first I thought it was retarded but now... meh, just slap a green laser on and go slay people.

C0llis

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Tuesday, March 4th 2014, 6:09pm

I also think it is stupid. It is completely counter-intuitive and one of the best examples of things that "look cool" but are terrible for gameplay. I think we are lucky that lasers show the true aimpoint; it most likely due to an oversight rather than it being deliberate.

The fact that it affects some weapons more than others and even goes counter to the notion of "lower RPM -> more accurate" just makes it seem badly thought out and even more badly implemented. There is no wonder people are complaining about "netcode" and hitreg when they think they are on target while in fact they are not, due to visual recoil.

Most people just don't realize that the effect is there. The sole reason that more people don't complain about it is that LevelCap hasn't made a video complaining about it yet.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

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Wednesday, March 5th 2014, 6:47am

I agree especially with point #3, it makes the QBZ and SAR-21 unusable for me. But the worst offenders are the pistols, you can't hit shit with them without drastically reducing your rate of fire (which ultimately gets you killed)

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Wednesday, March 5th 2014, 7:22am

The old suppression system was fantastic. It gave a real incentive to lay down cover fire and it made toe to toe engagements a challenge.
Now the game treats this mechanic as if our soldiers are fearless robots who can under fire return accurate shots even when taking a few to the chest.

What makes this most aggravating was that if I encountered a sniper being a jag with a 98b and straight pull I could count on shooting at him and watching him hopelessly miss a return shot hoping for a OHK. Now... Forget it, if you see the scope glare, even if you do solid damage, he will just soak up the damage, keep his cool and put you down. "Medic!"

And in that topic it made sniper battles interesting and using squad cover a good tactic. Especially now we have the "sniper" perk that reduces suppression, it doesn't really benefit anything. There's minor scope sway when shot at, but it doesn't effect spread. It only forces you to hang tight or compensate.
"Reporting for duty commander" *Cue MEC loading theme*




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NoctyrneSAGA

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Wednesday, March 5th 2014, 7:26am

our soldiers are fearless robots


BUT BUT BUT... War is a video game isn't it? ;(

Seriously, though, when you were Suppressed in BF3, the heart rate monitor went berzerk which showed your soldier was crapping himself. But people really want their fearless idols I guess. In fact, the majority of firefights are just Suppression battles from what I hear.

People whined about Suppression in BF3 and it had rather logical changes applied for BF4. However, Suppression in BF3 actually had teeth while BF4 is watered down.
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Wednesday, March 5th 2014, 8:20am

Dice REALLY needs to be made aware of this, and it needs to be REMOVED. Its a stupid, stupid mechanic. I hope levelcap makes a video on it, or SOMETHING. Xfactor has made 1 or 2 small little videos mentioning it before, but its not enough to get the majority aware about it.

elementofprgress

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Wednesday, March 5th 2014, 9:14am

The whole visual recoil/scope sway is not nearly as bad or daunting as a lot of people make it seem. Once you realize it is there its kinda annoying until you adjust but adjusting shouldn't be all to hard. From all the testing I've done the sway is more of an animation then anything. In other words 100% predictable when not suppressed.

I think the main reason for its existence isn't to make the game look pretty or anything like that but to apply suppression effects on. I know a lot of us at symthic liked the old suppression mechanics the majority of the community did not and were pretty vocal about it. At least now you have a chance of correcting your aim while suppressed and firing back instead of having perfect aim but missing due to spread.

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NoctyrneSAGA

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Wednesday, March 5th 2014, 9:17am

@elementofprgress

According to the Call of Duty Wiki, Visual Recoil is part of the firing animation.
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