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  • "3VerstsNorth" started this thread

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Saturday, February 8th 2014, 11:06pm

Analysis of BF4 gun balance and niches

Ok, I'm almost done :pinch: with updating the brute-force tables and wanted to give a sneak peek into how the CR and SA guns rank in their in-game effectivity. In the bigger picture, I played around with an all-in-one visualization of the gun effectivity tables and it turned out quite interesting - and quite informative of the design choices DICE has made with the balance.

So, I'm showing below analyses of T100 values, like in the brute-force thread, but under conditions where the burst size is fixed to 3 shots and the aim is fixed either to middle of the head or to the middle of the torso. After the burst, there is a 100 ms inter-burst interval before the next: this is the same for all guns and because an optimal burst size is not searched for, it's irrelevant (but included to T100). For guns with special burst-rate-of-fire, this is used.

Given these constraints, the tables below show for each gun (rows) and each distance (columns) the T100 value (mean time taken to achieve 100 damage), optimal attachment combination, and the mean number of bullets spent in getting the kill. All simulation methods, colors, etc. are as in the brute-force thread. Please note that these numbers are derived from numerical simulations including all relevant game-mechanic related factors as completely and correctly as we know of.

Let's start with a stationary shooter aiming down the sights at torso with perfect recoil compensation (perfect V recoil compensation + compensation of the mean H recoil). The color tells how much faster (green) or slower (red) the gun kills at a given distance in comparison to the mean of all guns. The mean percentage across distances is shown in the second column and the guns are grouped per category and sorted within the groups.



For a moving shooter ADS'd to torso with perfect compensation, the data look like this:



Finally, shooting from the hip changes the picture quite a bit:



Generic summa summarum,

1. Some guns consistently top the charts and hence are all-around better than others in their category. This effectivity seems well paired with their difficulty of use.
2. ARs are the jack of all trades guns and outshoot others when ADSd both while moving and stationary.
3. For a stationary shooter, LMGs are on par with ARs, and with suppression can outshoot them even in competitive settings, albeit situationally.
4. If moving, consider stopping before shooting your LMG.
5. PDWs own all other guns when shot from hip, carbines come second. PDWs are also effective with longer bursts, which is underestimated here.

If interested, see below for these tables for headshots and shooters with no recoil compensation. All input, critique, comments, and notifications of fuck-ups are welcome.

ADS, headshots, perfect compensation

stationary ADS

moving ADS

moving HIP



ADS, torso, no compensation

stationary ADS

moving ADS

moving HIP



ADS, head, no compensation

stationary ADS

moving ADS

moving HIP

"Less is more? How can that be? How could less be more, that's impossible. More is more." Yngwie Malmsten
"Many bullets help." WoopsyYaya
"most rhetorically legitimate ad hominem 2015" ToTheSun!

Miffyli

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Saturday, February 8th 2014, 11:28pm

2. ARs are the jack of all trades guns and outshoot others when ADSd both while moving and stationary.

Ah, so I haven't been mad at ARs for no reason after all. Good to know :D. Gotta read the rest later.
Hemmetinmoisesti hommaa ollu kyl tässä, sen lisäksi että sinulla on muutakin tekemistä ollu. Hemmetinmoinen rep jo sen lisäksi mitä ollu++
All hail the cyberki-.. err.. statsking?

EDIT: It also seems to be your 666th post. Coincidence? ;)
EDIT2: Stickied the topic. Tell me if you want the other topic (about brute-force stuff) unstickied.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

This post has been edited 4 times, last edit by "Miffyli" (Feb 8th 2014, 11:46pm)


  • "3VerstsNorth" started this thread

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Sunday, February 9th 2014, 9:32am

2. ARs are the jack of all trades guns and outshoot others when ADSd both while moving and stationary.

Ah, so I haven't been mad at ARs for no reason after all. Good to know :D. Gotta read the rest later.
Hemmetinmoisesti hommaa ollu kyl tässä, sen lisäksi että sinulla on muutakin tekemistä ollu. Hemmetinmoinen rep jo sen lisäksi mitä ollu++
All hail the cyberki-.. err.. statsking?

EDIT: It also seems to be your 666th post. Coincidence? ;)
EDIT2: Stickied the topic. Tell me if you want the other topic (about brute-force stuff) unstickied.

@Miffyli
Thanks!

Across gun classes there appears to be a clear mobile-to-stationary firepower transition in the order of PDWs -> Carbines -> ARs -> LMGs. While ARs are overall and least situationally the strongest anti-infantry guns, they come at the cost of needing to play assault ;) .

E1: Kind of ^^ ...but alas, number of the beast is no more - maybe your god-mode-mod-fu is strong enough to sticky even the post count?
E2: I'm updating it to contain up-to-date the class-specific tables and sub-analyses (headshot efficiency, suboptimal attachments).
"Less is more? How can that be? How could less be more, that's impossible. More is more." Yngwie Malmsten
"Many bullets help." WoopsyYaya
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Sunday, February 9th 2014, 2:44pm

and still,the cbj-ms keep being the worst weapon at everything.
"I'm just a loot whore."


stuff mostly unrelated to BF4 that interests nobody



bf4
on 13/05/2016
23rd M320FB user on pc(13/05/16)
rush mode score RANK:2794 TOP:2% OUT OF:215398
obliteration mode scoreRANK:994 TOP:1% OUT OF:159466
handgun medals RANK:2236 TOP:2% OUT OF:143874
longest headshot RANK:9512 TOP:4% OUT OF:257589
recon score RANK:10871 TOP:4% OUT OF:274899
general score per minute RANK:10016 TOP:4% OUT OF:294774

bf3
31/3/2012 4:58:

Headshot distance RANK:493* TOP:0%
Revives per assault minute RANK: 6019 TOP: 3%
Headshots / kill percentage RANK:25947 TOP:13%
MVP ribbons RANK:18824 TOP:11%

*= 6 if we not count the EOD BOT headshots

@kataklism

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ENEMY KILLED [REASON] JSLICE20 100


WRITING SPREE STOPPED 500

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Tuesday, February 11th 2014, 12:08pm

Some of the charts seem skewed due to unrealistic ranges. I personally wouldn't hipfire beyond 20m, so a weapon that performs well at 20-40m might look better than one that is better at closer ranges.
Same with the moving ads, I wouldn't move and shoot beyond 50m.

I would like to see combo charts that use moving hipfire from 0-20m, moving ads from 25-50m, and stationary ads from 55-100m. This would give better all round performance indicators. Obviously the LMGs would suffer from moving and the PDWs would suffer at the stationary ads, which is why they are not used as frequently as assault rifles and carbines.
The fact that someone has an opinion, doesn't make their opinion a fact. Making just arguments first requires an acknowledgement of intellectual humility, while valid arguments require you to not commit fallacies of logic and rhetoric.

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Tuesday, February 11th 2014, 4:08pm

@untamedone
While I agree with you about the moving hip charts (though I'd expend them up to 30m) I can shoot at moving targets while moving myself in ADS up to 100m, so if I can I think anyone could do as well (I'm clearly an average player). The moving ADS charts are by that view perfectly valid.

Past that distance I do stand still to shoot, and I'd like to see charts going up to 150m for standing ADS.

A man can wish, another man would see if he would grant the wishes ^^

__/From phone, please excuse errors\__
Stats thingy

Quotes of wisdom (maybe)


I'm a battlefield player, good sir. I don't play metro.

PC is no longer PC master race. It's PC mustard race, because consoles need to ketchup :'D

DICE gave so much into making commander better, but lemmings be lemmings I guess.

As a good guy that don't want to use overly glitched weapons, I'll quit using the MTAR and switch to the ACWR until it's fixed

The world needs more people like you


+1, I think we're all in agreement that more MrT3as would be an awesome thing :love:
Although if that was the case they'd use up so much of the world's awesome that there'd be none left for the rest of us! :D

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Tuesday, February 11th 2014, 4:34pm

While I agree with you about the moving hip charts (though I'd expend them up to 30m) I can shoot at moving targets while moving myself in ADS up to 100m, so if I can I think anyone could do as well (I'm clearly an average player). The moving ADS charts are by that view perfectly valid.

Past that distance I do stand still to shoot, and I'd like to see charts going up to 150m for standing ADS.

Torso aimed moving ads to 100m is only somewhat reasonable on assault rifles as the trade off is about 20% longer TTK, while the other weapons lose 50-100%. For headshots the TTK nearly doubles for every weapon, meaning if you aim for the head and move at 100m you are "doing it wrong".

Torso aimed hipfire at 30m vs moving ads at 30m doubles your TTK on average. Literally the only weapon viable at 30m torso hipfire is the AS VAL (which unique because of its high damage). Hipfire headshots at 30m will nearly triple TTK vs moving ads.

Sure anyone is capable of 30m hipfire and 100m moving ads, but at those ranges you would be better off moving ads at 30m and standing at 100m.
The fact that someone has an opinion, doesn't make their opinion a fact. Making just arguments first requires an acknowledgement of intellectual humility, while valid arguments require you to not commit fallacies of logic and rhetoric.

  • "3VerstsNorth" started this thread

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Tuesday, February 11th 2014, 4:43pm

Past that distance I do stand still to shoot, and I'd like to see charts going up to 150m for standing ADS.


:rolleyes:

unspoiler me pls



I would like to see combo charts that use moving hipfire from 0-20m, moving ads from 25-50m, and stationary ads from 55-100m.


Couldn't do this yet...

Literally the only weapon viable at 30m torso hipfire is the AS VAL (which unique because of its high damage).


Here the accuracy of AS VAL is slightly overestimated because it cannot equip HB. Revised charts coming up sometime soon.
"Less is more? How can that be? How could less be more, that's impossible. More is more." Yngwie Malmsten
"Many bullets help." WoopsyYaya
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Tuesday, February 11th 2014, 5:26pm

@3verstsnorth

very nice! :thumbup:

my thoughts:
Like the fact SA rifles are included
AK-12 on burst mode @750rpm? Defo needs more attention dat AK-12 ^^
AEK and ACE have lower TTK than M16A4 at range, shows you how badly it needs a buff, even if AEK is harder to control ;(

Can the compensator ever be better than the HB for the AEK? If at long range HB is more accurate, shouldn't it be more accurate at medium ranges too ?


So.....where is the DMR/sidearm TTK tables? :D
Moving ADS spread values

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As a main hater on this forum, I say no, it's not worth it.
I have been playing Battlefield since 1942 (the original PC game, not the year).
now I'd jerk off a hobo
With a compensator and angled grip I click people to death like I was playing diablo.
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Tuesday, February 11th 2014, 5:50pm

Here the accuracy of AS VAL is slightly overestimated because it cannot equip HB. Revised charts coming up sometime soon.
You beat me to it. I noticed it earlier and was just about to comment on it :)

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.