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  • "Labby" started this thread

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Friday, January 10th 2014, 5:32pm

A Symthic Community Response to Demize99's Feedback Request

This is a response to Demize99's request for balance feedback collated from from posts around the forums and extensive discussion with respected members.

Quoted from "Alan Kertz @Demize99"

The Scout cannon tweak is because they are better at all targets than the miniguns. They are designed to be a weak anti vehicle option.

  • The 25mm cannons already fulfil the weak anti-vehicle role, 30 rear shots on an MBT are already capable of taking up to 70% of the tank’s health, they do not need higher direct damage. Even a slight increase in damage would allow the 25mm to disable or kill a tank in a single pass. As for effectiveness against infantry, higher direct damage would make them even more potent, even with reduced splash, as direct hits already make up the bulk of the 25mm’s damage since they inflict ~39% each, compared to a mere 14% for splash hits. If you want to make the 25mm less effective against infantry, it should be done either by reducing the direct hit multiplier on infantry from 2.5x to 1x, making direct hits inflict ~24% each instead of 39%, and/or by increasing the cannon’s min-spread from zero to 0.5 or 1.0 lowering the probability of scoring direct hits on infantry. Either change would make the 25mm less effective against infantry while having no or minimal effect on its effectiveness against vehicles which is already reasonable.

Quoted from "Alan Kertz @Demize99"

Ok, so that's a pretty resounding "the AH needs survival not firepower." The flip from missile impact is not intentional, so...

  • Missiles causing flips is from the high impulse impact, a reduction in that would solve it.
  • It is very possible to avoid being flipped via correct positioning in respect to the missile impact already, but this isn’t widely known.
    How to be a better transport pilot: Pilot Episode - YouTube - at 10:18-10-32 countering missile flips is described .
  • Being instantly flipped without ability to recover because you lack this knowledge generally isn’t the most entertaining thing. Reducing the impulse to a slight push will still give skilled pilots the edge in dealing with missiles.
  • Survival is the serious issue, currently countermeasures take so long to reload that after countermeasure use, a single opposing infantryman can fire all of the stingers he can carry, killing the heli twice over, a reduction in reload to 17s for ECM and 14s for Flares allows a single stinger source to hit the helicopter with 2 missiles at 300m, causing a disable and Forcing the heli to land and repair.
  • Missile agility seems to cause lots of hits through countermeasures, Missile max turn angle is 3600 for most missiles, 6000 for active radar, causing them to turn into the vehicle, unlike in BF3, where countermeasures would force the missiles into wide loops around the vehicles. Seriously cutting the max turn angle will significantly decrease the incidents where countermeasures “fail”, one of the largest helicopter and aircraft complaints at the moment.

Quoted from "Alan Kertz @Demize99"

Ok, pretty clear people think the MAA range on their gun is an issue. Will take a look.

  • Max range of the MAA’s gun is not the issue. Shortening the max range of the MAA’s gun will simply allow aircraft to attack from outside its range. The attack heli’s TV missiles already outrange the MAA’s 30mm. If you wish to reduce the gun’s effectiveness at range it should be done by increasing max spread from 0.6 to 1.0. This would cause the MAA to land fewer hits as targets get farther away, effectively reducing its DPS against distant targets without completely removing it’s ability to hit targets at range. Annoy: yes; seriously hurt: no

Quoted from "Alan Kertz @Demize99"

Attack Heli Gunner: Higher Direct DMG
Scout 25mm: Lower splash damage, Higher Direct DMG: aka more anti vehicle and less anti infantry.

  • See first response.

Quoted from "Alan Kertz @Demize99"

MAA: 4 missiles instead of 6 missiles
Attack Heli:
-Higher ROF on rockets
-Zuni higher direct damage
-Rocket splash radius up

  • The four missiles instead of six for MAA sounds good. The reserve ammo counter should be made consistent with other vehicle weapons as well. Currently it seems to count magazines rather than missiles.
  • The effectiveness of the attack heli’s weapons is actually in a pretty good place where it is now. The problem is survivability
  • Damage on Hydras and Zunis is good. Smart rockets are simply way too slow.
  • Properly aimed Zuni rockets kill an MBT in a single magazine, a slight improvement to direct damage would allow more leeway on the aiming require to achieve this, whilst also improving zuni performance vs other facings, to better compete vs hydras against heavy armour.

Quoted from "Alan Kertz @Demize99"

I think the V40 is a bigger issue in Hardcore than Core. Agree?

  • You can’t balance around 60 and 100 hitpoints at the same time. The V40's issue is the large inner splash radius. You often can not take effective cover. Reducing inner splash radius from 4m to 2m will make them less effective at mindless throwing.

Quoted from "Alan Kertz @Demize99"

NLAW, Active Radar, STAFF

  • Active radar accelerates extremely quickly (and the jet version has very high velocity), making them somewhat easy to aim. A reduction in active radar missile acceleration and maximum velocity would make them less “smart” via requiring more active prediction from the user. The targeted vehicle would also get a longer warning time.
  • NLAW and STAFF can lock on through obstacles, making the use of cover less rewarding.
  • STAFF and NLAW have very short locking range, but large acceptance angles. Doing what you did to active radar shortly after release (longer lock range, smaller angle) would increase the aiming requirements. We suggest something on the order of 100 m raylength and 3 degree acceptance angle. This change would require the user to be more accurate to score hits, provide a longer lock warning allowing the target to use IR smoke, and would give the NLAW and STAFF shell a niche at longer ranges.
  • Being hit almost immediately after the warning is the major complaint about active radar and NLAW/STAFF, some users reporting that by the time they hear the warning, they've already been hit. The above suggestions also solve this issue.
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This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Labby" (Jan 10th 2014, 8:19pm)

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Friday, January 10th 2014, 5:37pm

Very nice. Great job. :)

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Friday, January 10th 2014, 5:43pm

This sounds like good ideas to improve vehicle gameplay.
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Friday, January 10th 2014, 5:48pm

Hopefully this is seen and taken seriously. I really don't want to see nerfs and buffs because people are complaining without any stats to backup.


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Friday, January 10th 2014, 5:51pm

Best balance write-up i've seen for BF4. I hope this gets implemented!

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Friday, January 10th 2014, 5:58pm

well,now the only hope left is that they can buff dmrs without being contraditory(aka please god don't make them buff their damage to 50+)
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Friday, January 10th 2014, 5:59pm

There are some very good suggestions in this post. Mainly the countermeasure reload times and missile agility suggestions would improve the game very much.

Personally i dont think the MAA maingun changes are needed. Only the 20mm gun has a high range and it already comes with a weakness against armor and infantry compared to the 30mm. Changing its maxspread to 1.0 from 0.6 would allow aircraft to be exposed to MAA fire for more than 10 seconds at range wich is too much. The MAA would become too weak against jets otherwise and borderline useless against infantry at all ranges. The changes to active radar missiles are warranted and good enough to weaken the MAAs potential at range.
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Friday, January 10th 2014, 6:24pm

Excellent write-up. I agree with the points and suggestions, this could really improve vehicle gameplay.

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Friday, January 10th 2014, 6:31pm

This sounds like good ideas to improve vehicle gameplay.

Pretty damn good write up Labby! God for it :)

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Friday, January 10th 2014, 6:33pm


I imagine you solo in the scout heli from time to time and still do well? I specifically solo for competitive practice. Anyway, my point is, I still do very well when I solo in the scout heli, which leads me to beleive the AH's problems are mainly its maneuverability since all the other external factors would mostly be the same (lock times, etc). It would be nice to have a decreased cool down for CM and lower missile agility, but my personal experience says the absolute #1 thing the AH needs is maneuverability. Plus, this kind of change only increases the vehicle's effective "ceiling", while not adjusting the vehicles effective "floor".
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