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  • "Gorbaz The Dragon" started this thread

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11

Monday, December 9th 2013, 1:12am

I do not agree with making the weapons a 1 hit kill up close, under any circumstances. Spamming in CQ is enough of a problem with the already high torso damage, and a 1 hit headshot would just add more of a luck factor and worsen the probem. The problem lies in the fact that they are too weak at long range.

Shotguns obtain a one hit kill ability in close quarters and all Bolt Action Rifles can one shot headshot at any range (excluding the Scout Elite and FY-JS); simply an observation.

BF3's DMRs multipliers operated ideally. No one ever dared deem a DMR "overpowered" since they were semi-automatic and required some degree of skill applied (SKS could have surfaced as an exception). Now that the damage has been reduced and damage multipliers removed, their specific role has been compromised. Allotting them Bolt-Action levels of velocity could alleviate one issue, but it ignores another.

To maintain the integrity of this thread I am going to cease from posting a rebuttal to a future reply. We'll just have to accept that we perceive the situation from different angles.
I can do quite fine with any of the DMRs in BF3 in CQ, just slap on a laser and spam... Of course the biggest problem is getting the kill within the 10 round mag, which is bypassed in BF4. Because of this I think it would be best to keep the CQ performance poor.

Either way comparing them with shotguns and true sniper rifles is not the way to go (not saying you necessarily are doing this, but lvlcap does) shotguns are designed to be good in CQ, their mag sizes are smaller and fire rates lower, so it is only logical that they have very high damage. Sniper rifles have much lower fire rates, basically no follow up shot, and a much smaller mag size, therefore again, CQ performance is much worse in other aspects than the DMRs. The DMRs are capable of spamming with their large mag sizes (look SKS and M416 in BF3 when compared to the 10 round DMRs) and have better hipfire performance. Either way, shotguns are designed to be CQ, so they should outperform the DMRs, and although sniper rifles have OHK potential they still have very poor CQ in comparison to DMRs.

Regardless the best way to keep the CQ performance of the DMR at least adequate and not overpowering would be as I said to keep the damage to what it was in BF3, a 2 hit kill, but remove or reduce the headshot multiplier so that you cant get one hit kills with them when spamming. Of course and multiplier changes would need to be taken into account when changing damage at long range. But basically removing the OHK from DMRs keeps more counterplay against them in CQ when using other weapons.
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Monday, December 9th 2013, 2:07am

I've been playing quite extensively with the DMRs lately. And I have to say that as of late I don't think they are as bad as I initially assumed.

The thing with DMRs is that they require you to drastically adjust your way of playing; much more so than with any other weapon class.
WIth DMRs you simply can't be aggressive to the extend you can be with any automatic weapon, hell you can even be more aggressive with bolt actions than you can with DMRs.
If you play DMRs you have to play smart, and you have to play to your strengths. That doesn't make DMR better (hell you'll still be killed by plenty of carbines at ranges where the DMR should clearly be superior), but it makes the DMR usable to the extend that you can get a 2.0-3.0 KDR.

That all said though. DMRs are currently the weakest weapon class, and you have to jump through too many hoops to squize the metaphorical juice out of them.
The TTK of DMRs is abysmal, and frankly it's a joke that DMRs have a lower TTK at range than most carbines.
On top of that there are some other minor things that either don't make sense, or are unrealistic (I know it's a game, but dice tries to strafe for realism in a lot of their weapon factors)

A indirect factor that is also often overlooked is map layout.
DMRs are really good at holding sectors. In BF3 this worked well because there were a lot of sectors that you could hold by yourself or with a few teammates. Think Bazaar alley; Metro tunnels; Seine streets; Caspian Hilltop.
Mapdesign in BF4 is different. Not only do most maps have a lot more flanking routes and maybe even more important there is a ton of elevation added into the game. So many times do I get gunned down from a guy in a different plane of elevation (think people sniping on rooftops etc). Mapdesign just doesn't favor DMRs that much atm. The map DMRs work best in are Operation Locker, because it lacks these elevation planes (for most part) and it has long stretches where you won't get outflanked all that easily.

-----

There are currently a few things you can do to improve them, and most of the suggestions involve messing with the damage model.
Either:
a) Increase the damage model as a whole (higher max, higher minimum)
b) Increase the minimum damage
c) Adjust the headshot multiplier

I frankly think that a log of suggestions will make DMRs OP and frankly too much akin to bolt action rifles.
I think upping the whole damage model back to the BF3 version (which Levelcap wants) is a bad move. The BF3 DMRs allowd that damage model becasue they were recon only; they had to bridge the gap between close range PDWs and long range bolt actions. In BF4 the DMRs are suppose to be the precision option for people who want a bit more power and precision at medium to long range in exchange for a lower rate of fire.
The higher max damage and minimum damage would make DMRs too good in both the long and short range; they are not suppose to be the "All-round" weapons they were in BF3, but rather the "All kit precision weapons".

Increasing the minimum damage on the other hand is a very solid and frankly a very realistic option.
DMRs currenly require too many bullets at 60+ meters. You can not always pop heads, and needing 4 bullets to kill at range is abysmal.
Changing that into a 3 shot kill at range would allevate a lot of the issues where DMRs get outclassed at range by carbines, and allow for a head+body shot double tap.
On top of that all this is a minor balance tweak that won't turn DMRs into godmode machines right away.

Adjusting the headshot multiplier is another thing you can adjust, the one thing I'm afraid of though is "lucky DMR shots". With weapons that deal this much damage at close range getting a "lucky" hipfire headshot would really make DMRs flame/complain bait.
I'm just afraid that with solid aim this can turn the DMR into a super strong asset in medium-long ranges while being able to stand it's ground in close range too if you get skilled enough to pop heads. So in the end I'm afraid this changes too much, whereas the minimum damage adjustment is a relative minor tweak.

------

Should DICE not want to mess with the damage model, or if the minimum damage change doesn't turn out to be enough. (Which I could see being a thing as well)
There are other options, some quality of life improvements that would help DMRs out.

1) Increase muzzle velocity. Frankly whatever they do I think this should be done as well.
It's kind of weird that DICE decided to skip out on the "realism" factor on this part. Longer barreled rifles generally have a higher muzzle velocity (more factors come in, but with equal rounds, the barrel length counts).
It would be nice if the DMRs got a 50-100 m/s velocity increase

2) Tweak recoil numbers.
Unlike contrairy complain of the masses. DMRs don't have bad spread increase. In fact the spread increase is more than managable as long as you don't spam your DMR like a madman.
The recoil on the other hand is quite massive; this makes getting followup shots tricky, and in medium range engagments it leads to a lower effective fire rate (or simply missing too many shots, due to bad compensation or firing too fast).
Adjusting the recoil would allow for DMRs to have a higher effective firerate without increasing their actual firerate (this can be done too, but wouldn't solve issues for the masses)

In the end I think there are a number of possible tweaks.
My favorite ones are an increase of minimum damage (up to 37.5 or so) and an increase of bullet velocity. Both are relative minor tweaks for close range but would help set DMRs on the map for medium to longer ranges.
That said though, I think a lot of players are misuing DMRs at the moment, leading to a lot of frustration.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Nyth" (Dec 9th 2013, 5:59am)


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13

Monday, December 9th 2013, 2:15am

I don't see them upping the minimum damage to 34 either, as that would (assuming no body armour) make them a three hit kill at any range. I guess they *could*, and say that if you want the extra protection to just use the armour, but I doubt it.

Speaking of body armour though - normally they swap from a three to four shot kill at around 63m metres. With the 0.93 damage modifier offered by the armour that drops to 50m. For the SKS and QBU-88 the equivalent is 25m vs 36m.

Not a huge difference, but enough to add unpleasantness to an already poor class of weapons.

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Monday, December 9th 2013, 7:52am

I tend to agree with Nyth, right now the DMRs have a very narrow niche in which they do well, but it is encroached upon by almost every other weapon in the game.

Being a 4 hit kill at range where they are supposed to shine is working backwards, especially when an AR needs only 2 more bullets to kill and has a saturation advantage. Up close the ARs only needing one more bullet just helps sink the nail that the DMRs are NOT meant to be CQ weapons, but I do think that there should be reward for accuracy and still allow you to OHK up close with a headshot.

Hell, with the current damage model even getting a headshot at long range only takes one bullet away from the equation, 3 shots to kill including a headshot? That's bogus.

I'd say increase the min-damage and increase the headshot multiplier so you have a OHK headshot potential up close and a guaranteed 2 hit kill with at least one headshot at range.



I also think that the SKS and QBU damage model isn't different enough from the others to be worthwhile. They are still a 3 hit kill up close both chest and legs and a 4 hit kill at long range. Headshots aren't any different either, with them also becoming a 2 hit kill up close with at least one headshot and a 3 shot kill at range with one headshot. They should just give all the DMRs the same damage at this point.

If they wanted to make them different because of the ROF advantages, I think a more significant way to change them is with the spread value. The 0.5 to 1.0 is a start, but I think that the SKS should get a .2 spread like the ARs and the QBU should get the bullpup modifier added onto a .1 spread rather than a .05 spread. I don't know what that'll make it, .125 spread or something?




I will say that the DMR issue isn't nearly as bad in HC mode. Aside from getting leg shots almost every DMR is a 2 hit kill at all ranges and a OHK in the head. Raising the min damage and headshot multiplier will only have the effect of making the DMRs a guaranteed 2 hit kill in all parts of the body at all ranges.
DMRs don't have the slightest exhibition of being overpowered as they are still crippled up close because of ROF and suffer from spamming, but are a much more viable choice and you see them being implemented with high rates of success.
In normal mode I can see why it's an extremely poor choice.
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Monday, December 9th 2013, 2:03pm

I think the problem was that dice thought that the DMRs were OP overall in BF3 (people whine about them a lot), but they misread the bitching and whining, thinking that they were op under most circumstances. Rather the problem was the high CQ performance and not the long range performance. They probably nerfed the long range performance to reduce the power of them overall, but instead of balancing the weapon made the CQ balanced, but the mid-long range very underwhelming.
+1
Shotguns obtain a one hit kill ability in close quarters and all Bolt Action Rifles can one shot headshot at any range (excluding the Scout Elite and FY-JS); simply an observation.
darn I wrote a whole paragraph and deleted it ;(
anyway Shotguns are meant for CQ, BAs have been nerfed in two ways in CQ.
DMRs shouldn't get OHK, even though right now it wouldn't be a problem with the massive recoil values.
However, it leaves DICE less room to lower the recoil values, because then in CQ people start spamming headshots.

Think Bazaar alley; Metro tunnels; Seine streets; Caspian Hilltop.
Mapdesign in BF4 is different.
agreed, although with the new China Rising maps, DMRs may see more use :)
also people probably play DMRs in TDM which is tricky.


I agree with Nyth, best buffs in my view are 3 shot kill at range and maybe slightly lower recoil values
CQ HS should leave enemy with like 10-20 HP so a follow-up chest shot kills
Moving ADS spread values

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Monday, December 9th 2013, 8:05pm

It's possible to make DMRs competitive weapons by nerfing them more than buffing them. Here's how:

Buff: BF3 damage model
Nerf: Hip spread, ADS speed, R.O.F.
Attachments: Eliminate laser sights, add higher power scopes

Suddenly you have a weapon that performs great at long range, and poor in close quarters. Sounds like a designated marksman rifle to me.

Bolt-action rifles are OHK up close, but nobody's running around using them as shotguns. Why? Because they have a buttload of other stats that prevent them from doing so, but damage certainly isn't one of them. The same should be done with DMRs at an intermediate degree that fits them in between ARs and BA rifles as they should be. Doing the above should solve this.

Some people claim that the fact that they're all-kit should prevent them from being 50 damage. That's pretty much admitting that all kit-weapons should be inferior to class-specific weapons. But since carbines (a.k.a. baby ARs) exist, that's not even the case already. They need that damage to reward marksmen for being marksmen.

  • "Gorbaz The Dragon" started this thread

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Monday, December 9th 2013, 8:16pm


Some people claim that the fact that they're all-kit should prevent them from being 50 damage. That's pretty much admitting that all kit-weapons should be inferior to class-specific weapons. But since carbines (a.k.a. baby ARs) exist, that's not even the case already. They need that damage to reward marksmen for being marksmen.
All kit weapons should not be great all around weapons like ARs, instead they should be more specialized, the DMRs are a great example as were the BF3 PDWs.
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Monday, December 9th 2013, 8:44pm


Some people claim that the fact that they're all-kit should prevent them from being 50 damage. That's pretty much admitting that all kit-weapons should be inferior to class-specific weapons. But since carbines (a.k.a. baby ARs) exist, that's not even the case already. They need that damage to reward marksmen for being marksmen.
All kit weapons should not be great all around weapons like ARs, instead they should be more specialized, the DMRs are a great example as were the BF3 PDWs.

Apparently, part of DICE disagrees and makes Carbines great all around weapons for all classes. It's a legitimate Idea, I think, but it makes DMRs just not worth it as of now.
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Monday, December 9th 2013, 8:44pm

I think everyone agrees they should have their niche. That niche is designated MARKSMAN rifle. IMO that means they should be accurate at mid range and reasonably capable of taking someone out, and I don't believe that they are where they need to be for that.

I would:

1. decrease spread\spread increase
2. increase velocity
3. increase damage min to 34
4. x2.35 head shot modifier
5. Maybe increase damage drop off?

The above makes the weapon more accurate, with the velocity to hit something at range. 3 shots to kill at range, with the possibility of 2 with head shot.

I'm a believer in one head shot to kill up close. I don't see an issue with that, it's a rifle for gods sakes. Someone with a DMR should be able to defend themselves, they would still be at a serious disadvantage to anything else up close.
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Tuesday, December 10th 2013, 1:21am

its because of the magazine size increase and all kit capability is why Dice nerf'd the DMRs hard. I'm assuming they will give it a 1 shot headshot capability back in future updates as twitter suggests but for the time being...I'd recommend using a different class of weapon. Unless if you like a challange.

For me, I love the M39 EMR in real life and just a huge fan of this weapon. Along with the MK Mod 11. So those I use on occasion for nostalgic purposes, kinda like buying a racing game and buying a car you love even though its outclassed by the others just because its something you love personally. Same can be said for the M16 and M1911.