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181

Tuesday, January 14th 2014, 7:21pm

Would HBar+Angled Grip be a good sub-optimal setup for the SCAR-H?


Of course it is :)

The stubby adds minimal spread benefits which statistically beat the angled grip. The angled grip plays statistically no role, because perfect or standard vertical recoil is assumed which is equal for all weapons and disregards teh angled grip.

In practise you almost HAVE to use the angled grip with the SCAR + HB because of the massive FSM. The statistical benefits of the stubby are waaay outweighed by the reduction of the FSM of the angled.
Moving ADS spread values

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As a main hater on this forum, I say no, it's not worth it.
I have been playing Battlefield since 1942 (the original PC game, not the year).
now I'd jerk off a hobo
With a compensator and angled grip I click people to death like I was playing diablo.
AKU-12 stomps it in the nuts and posts the video to WorldStarHipHop.

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182

Friday, January 17th 2014, 11:24am

So I have been looking at a lot of numbers and charts, and I wonder -
The FAMAS, in the multi-weapon comparison, seems to beat out every single assault rifle in terms of ttk. However, in this thread the SCAR-H seems to be king. In fact, if I'm reading the charts right then the SCAR kills 22.6% faster than an average AR at most ranges. How is this different? Is there anything else to calculate the ttk taken into account in this thread, and not the multi-weapon comparison, or vice-versa?



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183

Friday, January 17th 2014, 12:19pm

So I have been looking at a lot of numbers and charts, and I wonder -
The FAMAS, in the multi-weapon comparison, seems to beat out every single assault rifle in terms of ttk. However, in this thread the SCAR-H seems to be king. In fact, if I'm reading the charts right then the SCAR kills 22.6% faster than an average AR at most ranges. How is this different? Is there anything else to calculate the ttk taken into account in this thread, and not the multi-weapon comparison, or vice-versa?

I'm not exactly sure if I understood your questions right - what do you mean by 'How is this different?'.

T100 in this thread is estimation of the effective in-game TTK considering the true statistical accuracy of the weapon. It is correct that SCAR-H dominates the maps but in a manner that is in-game compensated by it being very difficult to use. One aspect of SCAR-H superiority comes from getting headshots reliably, which adds on to the other aspects of 'difficult to use' (high recoil, small magazine, low ROF).

If you have a look at similar tables where the aimpoint was fixed to torso (see WIP tables in this post), SCAR-H looses quite a bit of its prowess and in short/mid-ranges FAMAS is indeed the best AR.

Edit-xtra: looking at the 40 m columns: for non-moving ADS, all ARs but one (SAR) have mean T100 within 50 ms. For moving ADS, all ARs but two (AUG, SAR) have T100 within 100 ms of each other. These 'effective TTK' differences are so small that this essentially indicates that DICE has done an excellent job in weapon balance. You can pick any AR and be competitive with it - the statistical advantages of any AR against any other AR pale in comparison to the advantages the player can create himself in-game.
"Less is more? How can that be? How could less be more, that's impossible. More is more." Yngwie Malmsten
"Many bullets help." WoopsyYaya
"most rhetorically legitimate ad hominem 2015" ToTheSun!

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "3VerstsNorth" (Jan 17th 2014, 12:24pm)


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184

Friday, January 17th 2014, 1:55pm

So I have been looking at a lot of numbers and charts, and I wonder -
The FAMAS, in the multi-weapon comparison, seems to beat out every single assault rifle in terms of ttk. However, in this thread the SCAR-H seems to be king. In fact, if I'm reading the charts right then the SCAR kills 22.6% faster than an average AR at most ranges. How is this different? Is there anything else to calculate the ttk taken into account in this thread, and not the multi-weapon comparison, or vice-versa?

I'm not exactly sure if I understood your questions right - what do you mean by 'How is this different?'.

T100 in this thread is estimation of the effective in-game TTK considering the true statistical accuracy of the weapon. It is correct that SCAR-H dominates the maps but in a manner that is in-game compensated by it being very difficult to use. One aspect of SCAR-H superiority comes from getting headshots reliably, which adds on to the other aspects of 'difficult to use' (high recoil, small magazine, low ROF).

If you have a look at similar tables where the aimpoint was fixed to torso (see WIP tables in this post), SCAR-H looses quite a bit of its prowess and in short/mid-ranges FAMAS is indeed the best AR.

Edit-xtra: looking at the 40 m columns: for non-moving ADS, all ARs but one (SAR) have mean T100 within 50 ms. For moving ADS, all ARs but two (AUG, SAR) have T100 within 100 ms of each other. These 'effective TTK' differences are so small that this essentially indicates that DICE has done an excellent job in weapon balance. You can pick any AR and be competitive with it - the statistical advantages of any AR against any other AR pale in comparison to the advantages the player can create himself in-game.


By "how is this different" I meant that in the multi-weapon comparison online, FAMAS has the fastest ttk. But according to your charts, its the SCAR. Why?
Anyways, I saw the charts you linked, and I can make a bit more sense out of it. You mean that if I can manage to get headshots, the SCAR is better, but for average chest shots the FAMAS wins out in close to mid range, right?
Just a small request, if you don't mind :) - can you make the same chart as the one you linked (aim point 145 cm, burst size 3 or 2) for No Compensation IBI 300 ms for the ARs? I am by no means a noob, but my recoil compensation is not certainly not perfect, hope you understand.



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185

Friday, January 17th 2014, 2:21pm

By "how is this different" I meant that in the multi-weapon comparison online, FAMAS has the fastest ttk. But according to your charts, its the SCAR. Why?

Because in that comparison, the TTK is purely theoretical - it assumes that every bullet hits the target. In-game this will never happen because of spread and H recoil: even for a perfect human player, or an aimbot, some shots will miss. T100 values measure the in-game-relevant 'effective' TTK where the statistical properties of each gun and attachment are considered.

Anyways, I saw the charts you linked, and I can make a bit more sense out of it. You mean that if I can manage to get headshots, the SCAR is better, but for average chest shots the FAMAS wins out in close to mid range, right?

Yeah, for the chest shots in those WIP charts, between 15-35 m, FAMAS wins SCAR-H. Only by ~60 ms though (~15%).

Just a small request, if you don't mind :) - can you make the same chart as the one you linked (aim point 145 cm, burst size 3 or 2) for No Compensation IBI 300 ms for the ARs? I am by no means a noob, but my recoil compensation is not certainly not perfect, hope you understand.

Yeah, I'm working on a major revision of everything (+ China Rising guns, consider attachment availability, use Rezal's new moving spread algorithm, use more realistic hitboxes, ...): I'll add exactly those charts also requested by Woopsy for all weapons then.
"Less is more? How can that be? How could less be more, that's impossible. More is more." Yngwie Malmsten
"Many bullets help." WoopsyYaya
"most rhetorically legitimate ad hominem 2015" ToTheSun!

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186

Thursday, January 23rd 2014, 5:50pm

In the support class charts, an interesting trait is there that I don't seem to find in other weapon categories. That is, the low-RoF high accuracy weapons actually beat out the higher rpm higher recoil weapons. Even in the perfect compensation charts, the frickin' RPK-12 has a faster average ttk than the MG4. The M240 and PKP still top the charts,but I guess it's due to their higher damage. Compare this to the assault class, where the AK-12, considered to be an absolute laser beam by many, is completely overshadowed by the M416 and ACE.
After quite some thinking, I figured out a possible explanation - pretty much all ARs have 0.2 base spread, meaning that higher RoF weapons are automatically at an advantage. In case of LMGs however, the RPK-12 does edge out the MG4 in one thing, that is the base spread - 0.2 vs 0.3.

So am I right? Does the lower base spread of the mag-fed LMGs make that much of a difference? Because that being said, I really want to know exactly where does the RPK-74M stand. I know how bad it is, but it just oozes class and I want to find a way to put it to good use :)

@3VerstsNorth Any idea about the CR guns' charts?



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187

Friday, January 24th 2014, 10:33am



For the burst-mode analysis, I computed preliminary tables for ARs with aimpoint fixed to 145 and burst size to 3, and now only for 100 ms IBI with perfect recoil control. I'm not sure where to put this shit and how to formulate the tables, but have a look at these preliminary ones. The format is the same as earlier but aimpoint and burst size are omitted.

ARs Base ADS


ARs Moving ADS




Aaaah I forgot about this good piece! :) You should add it to OP under a misc. category !
I am surprised the compensator wins in certain cases such as for the M16A4 up to 30m. Are they (hb & c) simply on par in that range and comp is displayed over HB because of alphabet or does it have to do with the aimpoint?
Btw FAMAS has a burst of (2 iirc) !
Moving ADS spread values

WoopsyYaya - YouTube(Tipps und Tricks) [Deutsch/HD]


Show Gun Master some love <3 - Vol. 3


Funny quotes


As a main hater on this forum, I say no, it's not worth it.
I have been playing Battlefield since 1942 (the original PC game, not the year).
now I'd jerk off a hobo
With a compensator and angled grip I click people to death like I was playing diablo.
AKU-12 stomps it in the nuts and posts the video to WorldStarHipHop.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "WoopsyYaya" (Jan 24th 2014, 10:41am)


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Saturday, January 25th 2014, 6:18am

In the support class charts, an interesting trait is there that I don't seem to find in other weapon categories. That is, the low-RoF high accuracy weapons actually beat out the higher rpm higher recoil weapons. Even in the perfect compensation charts, the frickin' RPK-12 has a faster average ttk than the MG4. The M240 and PKP still top the charts,but I guess it's due to their higher damage. Compare this to the assault class, where the AK-12, considered to be an absolute laser beam by many, is completely overshadowed by the M416 and ACE.
After quite some thinking, I figured out a possible explanation - pretty much all ARs have 0.2 base spread, meaning that higher RoF weapons are automatically at an advantage. In case of LMGs however, the RPK-12 does edge out the MG4 in one thing, that is the base spread - 0.2 vs 0.3.

So am I right? Does the lower base spread of the mag-fed LMGs make that much of a difference? Because that being said, I really want to know exactly where does the RPK-74M stand. I know how bad it is, but it just oozes class and I want to find a way to put it to good use :)

@3VerstsNorth Any idea about the CR guns' charts?

Bump. Reply pls :/



Love knows no language. Suppression knows no range.
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Saturday, January 25th 2014, 10:31am

In the support class charts, an interesting trait is there that I don't seem to find in other weapon categories. That is, the low-RoF high accuracy weapons actually beat out the higher rpm higher recoil weapons. Even in the perfect compensation charts, the frickin' RPK-12 has a faster average ttk than the MG4. The M240 and PKP still top the charts,but I guess it's due to their higher damage. Compare this to the assault class, where the AK-12, considered to be an absolute laser beam by many, is completely overshadowed by the M416 and ACE.
After quite some thinking, I figured out a possible explanation - pretty much all ARs have 0.2 base spread, meaning that higher RoF weapons are automatically at an advantage. In case of LMGs however, the RPK-12 does edge out the MG4 in one thing, that is the base spread - 0.2 vs 0.3.

So am I right? Does the lower base spread of the mag-fed LMGs make that much of a difference? Because that being said, I really want to know exactly where does the RPK-74M stand. I know how bad it is, but it just oozes class and I want to find a way to put it to good use :)

@3VerstsNorth Any idea about the CR guns' charts?

Bump. Reply pls :/

The base spread is indeed a very important in how accurate the gun is in short bursts. RPK-12 has not only the AR base spread but also only 0.25 total H recoil. In balance, its moving spread (vs. ARs), mag-size (vs. LMGs), and RPM (vs. anything) suck: it's not a top-tier LMG in moving-ADS charts. The advantage of belt-fed over mag-fed LMGs is the FSM (0.5-1 vs. 1.5-1.6, except 0.75 for RPK-74), which is an important ease-of-use factor.

CR charts should finally be done during this weekend. I have not only struggled with procrastination but also with finding the server time... :|
"Less is more? How can that be? How could less be more, that's impossible. More is more." Yngwie Malmsten
"Many bullets help." WoopsyYaya
"most rhetorically legitimate ad hominem 2015" ToTheSun!

  • "3VerstsNorth" started this thread

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190

Friday, January 31st 2014, 9:16am

FYI, simulations are now running with both CR and SA guns - charts expected to be ready during weekend :rolleyes: .
"Less is more? How can that be? How could less be more, that's impossible. More is more." Yngwie Malmsten
"Many bullets help." WoopsyYaya
"most rhetorically legitimate ad hominem 2015" ToTheSun!