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141

Monday, December 9th 2013, 12:09pm

Sorry for the prolonged delay

hey no worries, don't neglect your real life ^^ just "manage our expectations" as they used to say where I worked before

so im looking at stats and wondering how to interpret the findings and how they will play out in the game.
What would be really nice to have is like a half-way compensation chart, i.e. you only compensate half the recoil / one quarter / three quarters. I think that would be very beneficial, since most people are somewhere inbetween perfect recoil and no recoil.
Not sure how feasible this is in comp time but it would be really useful I think!
Moving ADS spread values

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As a main hater on this forum, I say no, it's not worth it.
I have been playing Battlefield since 1942 (the original PC game, not the year).
now I'd jerk off a hobo
With a compensator and angled grip I click people to death like I was playing diablo.
AKU-12 stomps it in the nuts and posts the video to WorldStarHipHop.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "WoopsyYaya" (Dec 9th 2013, 12:59pm)


  • "3VerstsNorth" started this thread

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142

Monday, December 9th 2013, 5:30pm

Guys! Update time! Well partial, sort of, but still: new stuff.

In preparation for the optimal compromise tables, I edited in a post on Attachment Considerations. This aims to answer how many bullets and fractions of second is one giving up when using statistically sub-optimal attachments. I.e., these plots give the numbers to assess the statistical accuracy vs. ease-of-use trade-off. Please go see. I'll add to the post PDWs and stuff later tonight if someone's interested.
"Less is more? How can that be? How could less be more, that's impossible. More is more." Yngwie Malmsten
"Many bullets help." WoopsyYaya
"most rhetorically legitimate ad hominem 2015" ToTheSun!

  • "3VerstsNorth" started this thread

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143

Monday, December 9th 2013, 8:34pm

What would be really nice to have is like a half-way compensation chart, i.e. you only compensate half the recoil / one quarter / three quarters. I think that would be very beneficial, since most people are somewhere inbetween perfect recoil and no recoil.
Not sure how feasible this is in comp time but it would be really useful I think!


This would be doable (and a cool idea!) but we should decide how exactly the partial compensation should be estimated. Should we use the "no compensation" model but multiply V recoil by 0.25 or 0.5...? Or use a linear-within-burst V recoil compensation that makes the FSM overshoot?
"Less is more? How can that be? How could less be more, that's impossible. More is more." Yngwie Malmsten
"Many bullets help." WoopsyYaya
"most rhetorically legitimate ad hominem 2015" ToTheSun!

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144

Monday, December 9th 2013, 10:39pm

@3VerstNorth
!!! THANKS !!!

I struggle with the h+e combo so non optimum combos are exactly what I needed ^^
Edit: And I don't have the HB for all weapons, sooooo the best non optimum is still better than bad loadout ^^
Still an edit: c+e seem to be a good subopti combo for lots of guns. The images are really useful, thanks again ^^
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I'm a battlefield player, good sir. I don't play metro.

PC is no longer PC master race. It's PC mustard race, because consoles need to ketchup :'D

DICE gave so much into making commander better, but lemmings be lemmings I guess.

As a good guy that don't want to use overly glitched weapons, I'll quit using the MTAR and switch to the ACWR until it's fixed

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Although if that was the case they'd use up so much of the world's awesome that there'd be none left for the rest of us! :D

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145

Monday, December 9th 2013, 11:40pm

Guys! Update time! Well partial, sort of, but still: new stuff.

In preparation for the optimal compromise tables, I edited in a post on Attachment Considerations. This aims to answer how many bullets and fractions of second is one giving up when using statistically sub-optimal attachments. I.e., these plots give the numbers to assess the statistical accuracy vs. ease-of-use trade-off. Please go see. I'll add to the post PDWs and stuff later tonight if someone's interested.
Very cool. This is what I've been anticipating the most. I'd also like to see more controlled/realistic/non-optimal (whatever you want to call it) burst lengths and aim locations. Maybe something like 3-shot burst aimed at center/upper chest.
Hail to the king, baby!

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146

Tuesday, December 10th 2013, 12:11am

as always, great information to see. i do look forward to the burst analysis when it comes down the pipe.

looking at the attachment combinations, it seems as if the rough rule seems to be:

hbar + ergo = best overall
hbar + angled = the legit "noob combo" and possibly the actual optimal combination for high-recoil guns at close ranges. unless i am reading the graph incorrectly the FAMAS and AEK actually worse off at close range with a potato than an angled.
hbar + potato = not really that much better than the other grips, actually doesn't seem to have a niche at all when considering the loss of performance relative to the ergo in moving ADS.

i'm surprised the compensator is never better even with something like the FAMAS, but the penalty is so low for using it in close range i do wonder if it's going to be the practically optimal combination for some of those guns. it really seems like the other attachments need a bit of a buff. the barrel attachments are hardly ever worth using and the potato doesn't have enough benefit even for people using a silencer to justify it over an ergo.

regarding non-perfect recoil control: is it worth introducing just a simple Gaussian noise into the recoil control model? users may overcompensate or undercompensate, so you could add a fixed bit of noise to each individual burst to simulate this variation.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "shinryu" (Dec 10th 2013, 12:16am)


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Tuesday, December 10th 2013, 10:56am

thank you very much for this, confirms to me that stubby grip is practically pointless
40 m, ACE-23 with h p kills in T100=398 ms and uses 3.7 bullets
are you referring to the table right below that or a different one? for the one below the values are different

so looking at the data so far, I am guessing HB beats compensator on pretty much any AR, including the M16A4
Moving ADS spread values

WoopsyYaya - YouTube(Tipps und Tricks) [Deutsch/HD]


Show Gun Master some love <3 - Vol. 3


Funny quotes


As a main hater on this forum, I say no, it's not worth it.
I have been playing Battlefield since 1942 (the original PC game, not the year).
now I'd jerk off a hobo
With a compensator and angled grip I click people to death like I was playing diablo.
AKU-12 stomps it in the nuts and posts the video to WorldStarHipHop.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "WoopsyYaya" (Dec 10th 2013, 11:02am)


  • "3VerstsNorth" started this thread

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148

Tuesday, December 10th 2013, 12:34pm

I struggle with the h+e combo so non optimum combos are exactly what I needed


Yesterday, playing around with ACE-23, I switched from 'h e' to 'n a' and got somewhat an increase in in-game accuracy :huh: ...means I must be bad. No, but really, even if one needs to spam a few more bullets because of increased spread, spamming is more accurate without HB and with alleviated FSM. Like back to biking with training wheels :D .

I'd also like to see more controlled/realistic/non-optimal (whatever you want to call it) burst lengths and aim locations. Maybe something like 3-shot burst aimed at center/upper chest.


Limiting the aim location would go nicely hand-in-hand with limiting the burst size! If one is free then the other also has to be because torso can always take longer bursts than head. But now, yours is actually a neat idea. So, how about a fixed-burst-size analysis with 3-shot bursts at upper-mid-torso with both burst-only and full-auto weapons? Are there any 2-shot burst weapons in BF4?

i'm surprised the compensator is never better even with something like the FAMAS, but the penalty is so low for using it in close range i do wonder if it's going to be the practically optimal combination for some of those guns. it really seems like the other attachments need a bit of a buff. the barrel attachments are hardly ever worth using and the potato doesn't have enough benefit even for people using a silencer to justify it over an ergo.

regarding non-perfect recoil control: is it worth introducing just a simple Gaussian noise into the recoil control model? users may overcompensate or undercompensate, so you could add a fixed bit of noise to each individual burst to simulate this variation.


For FAMAS, the compensator is indeed actually the best attachment for distances 5-25 m and significantly worse than HB only starting at 45 m. I added links to these tables for FAMAS into the post. ...so overall in the relevant ranges, compensator definitely seems to be the optimal attachment for FAMAS.

Overall, the spread penalty of compensator kicks in so fast that it is comparable to HB only at around the second shot (check out my tables in this post). And yeah, potato is pretty useless.

For recoil, noise is a good idea but alone insufficient IMO: the recoil-compensation difficulty should somehow be factored in. The difficulty is largely attributable to the FSM but imperfect compensation is much more harmful to guns with just a lot of V recoil vs. guns that give you headshots even when under-compensating. Injecting some noise would nicely also emulate imperfect aiming, but this is tricky to do without exploding the combinatorial space.

@everyone, if you want attachment-penalty tables for your personal favorite weapon(s), list them in this thread and I'll upload :).

are you referring to the table right below that or a different one? for the one below the values are different

so looking at the data so far, I am guessing HB beats compensator on pretty much any AR, including the M16A4


Yeah, brainfart much. I was looking at the tables of AUG are even being really careful to get the numbers right this time. :pinch: The original post is corrected now.
"Less is more? How can that be? How could less be more, that's impossible. More is more." Yngwie Malmsten
"Many bullets help." WoopsyYaya
"most rhetorically legitimate ad hominem 2015" ToTheSun!

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "3VerstsNorth" (Dec 10th 2013, 12:45pm)


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149

Tuesday, December 10th 2013, 12:52pm

Are there any 2-shot burst weapons in BF4?

I think not. I went specifically looking for them because they were some of my favorites in BF3 but didn't find any.

In BF3 the 2 shot burst weapons were AN-94, MG36, M5K, UMP-45, and G36C. In BF4 those weapons don't exist or got converted to 3 round burst.
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150

Tuesday, December 10th 2013, 1:33pm

@3VerstNorth
^^
I usually shoot in burst of 5-7 bullets, or 2-3 if longer distances. Full auto hipfire if upclose, because in these case I don't care about top accuracy, but more about saturation around upper torso and head ^^
Given that, I consider that h+e is not a good combo for my playstyle, even if I totally recognise its superiority statistically ^^ Here we have the conforntation of both theorical and "real" accuracy, where the real one is given and usable only from my point of view ^^
Now, and again, thanks ^^

Shooting closely followed bursts while ADS moving is something hard to do for me if the recoil increase is high, and it is exactly what the HB does, that I find sad, somehow ^^
I'm now, thanks to you, using the c+e combo on my AEK, since it's the best overall subopti combo for it with me as user.
I still don't know if the ACE 23 is better at longish ranges than the AK12 or if the AK12 is well suited for it at all, so I still run them with n+e.
As you said, the angled has something for it. I think that it's the range you intend to reach that will determine wich attachments you'll end up using. To bursts at longish ranges I think the angled is a nice one.

What I wanted to know is this : Will you make it all again taking into account the suppressor or it is so much work that you find it not worth the effort right now ?
Stats thingy

Quotes of wisdom (maybe)


I'm a battlefield player, good sir. I don't play metro.

PC is no longer PC master race. It's PC mustard race, because consoles need to ketchup :'D

DICE gave so much into making commander better, but lemmings be lemmings I guess.

As a good guy that don't want to use overly glitched weapons, I'll quit using the MTAR and switch to the ACWR until it's fixed

The world needs more people like you


+1, I think we're all in agreement that more MrT3as would be an awesome thing :love:
Although if that was the case they'd use up so much of the world's awesome that there'd be none left for the rest of us! :D

yes, I know, I'm a big-ass hypocrite